6 ms·

That amendment is so overly broad the author should be forced to re-take some sort of how to draft bills class. It would require fingerprinting for purchases o

That amendment is so overly broad the author should be forced to re-take some sort of how to draft bills class. It would require fingerprinting for purchases of "certain 3D printers". What does that even mean? I guess the existing law defined what "firearm" means in the context of that law, but if I was a retailer selling 3D printers, I would have some serious questions about it. My 5-year-old entry level 3D printer could probably print parts of a firearm, but those parts would probably not be very durable to a point they would be completely unusable. Would selling that printer be subject to this law? Who the f** knows. I don't think the author of the bill knows either. Maybe someone could ask. She's Jenifer Rajkumar: https://nyassembly.gov/mem/Jenifer-Rajkumar https://nyassembly.gov/mem/Jenifer-Rajkumar This bill is listed on her list of sponsored bills: https://nyassembly.gov/mem/Jenifer-Rajkumar/sponsor/ https://nyassembly.gov/mem/Jenifer-Rajkumar/sponsor/

Simulacra 3y ago
In New York legislation is drafted by attorneys, the elected person and their staff don't usually write them. It's still bloody awful but I think it's worse because an actual attorney was supposed to write this
- giantg2 3y ago
  In most places, the legislation is drafted by special interest groups.
giantg2 3y ago
I also think the law is bad. I do want to point out that if you want to make durable parts with a 3D printer, the easiest thing to do would be to create the part with the printer, then use it to form a mold for casting the part out of metal. Then case harden. That's the cheap and fairly easy way. I just want to point that out because I think that use case of 3D printers gets overlooked. Or you buy a fairly expensive lathe/mill.
- swell36 3y ago
  My first thought was, will this apply to basically all machinery? Because for about $2000 I can buy a mill kit that I can manufactur a complete firearm on.
- eindiran 3y ago
  > the easiest thing to do would be to create the part with the printer, then use it to form a mold for casting the part out of metal This is definitely not true for parts that need to be closely toleranced. Lost-PLA casting, DIY mold-making, etc are manufacturing processes not world-renowned for their ability to keep things precise.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    Yeah, most parts in simple designs do not need to be super precise. Some hand fitting might be necessary.
    - eindiran 3y ago
      This is in the context of firearms, which are presumably modern repeating firearms, where they will cease to function if the tolerances are wrong.
      - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
        You can get remarkably far with pretty crude tolerances, especially with lower pressure, pistol rounds. For example a direct-blowback, open-bolt submachine guns akin to what was used in WW2 can be pretty easily designed and built by anybody with a passable understanding of mechanics.
        eindiran 3y ago
        Again, we're talking about casting. Take a look at an Owen or a Sten and get back to me on what parts you think can be plausibly lost-PLA casted.
pandemicsoul 3y ago
It's so tiring to have these kinds of conversations with folks who do not understand the legislative process. There's no need to treat the legislator like an idiot. She's doing what EVERY legislator does, which is to identify a problem ("printed guns are a loophole in how we manage guns in this state") and saying she wants to find a solution to that problem. One mechanism by which legislators do that is by writing draft bills and then helping it through the legislative process to be improved, sorta like how you'd write a draft essay for a college class and then go back for a second and third pass before submitting it. As part of this process, people who are in favor of no legislation will come forward, people who are in favor of strong legislation will come forward, she'll hear their advice and feedback. If she's lucky, the bill will be seen by a committee who will hold hearings and re-draft it. When you see a "ready to go bill," it's either been through a dozen-step process in this legislative session OR it's been brought up in a dozen different sessions and been improved along the way as legislators have to re-introduce all the bills they are sponsoring in each legislative session. The legislator is not an expert in the issue, and I doubt she's claiming she is. She's proposing the broad strokes of a solution to a problem she sees. The point is not to pass the bill in its current form – it's to figure out how to solve the problem, using this general idea as the starting point.
- doctorwho42 3y ago
  Fundamentally though, the 'problem' she sees, is it really a problem? How many gun deaths in the past 10 years were related to 3d printed guns or gun parts? Is that number greater than 1% of gun deaths in the past year of the same area? (1% of gun deaths in 10yrs / 1% in 1 year) If it's not, than I would surmise that this is a non-issue nor a problem. And that instead it is a older representative that needs to retire instead of proposing laws that drastically damage the fr edoms of the citizenry. To take away the democratization of manufacturing plastic parts from its citizens will irreparably damage the community this legislature feigns to serve.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago

Simulacra 3y ago

In New York legislation is drafted by attorneys, the elected person and their staff don't usually write them. It's still bloody awful but I think it's worse because an actual attorney was supposed to write this

giantg2 3y ago
In most places, the legislation is drafted by special interest groups.

giantg2 3y ago

I also think the law is bad. I do want to point out that if you want to make durable parts with a 3D printer, the easiest thing to do would be to create the part with the printer, then use it to form a mold for casting the part out of metal. Then case harden. That's the cheap and fairly easy way. I just want to point that out because I think that use case of 3D printers gets overlooked. Or you buy a fairly expensive lathe/mill.

swell36 3y ago
My first thought was, will this apply to basically all machinery? Because for about $2000 I can buy a mill kit that I can manufactur a complete firearm on.
eindiran 3y ago
> the easiest thing to do would be to create the part with the printer, then use it to form a mold for casting the part out of metal This is definitely not true for parts that need to be closely toleranced. Lost-PLA casting, DIY mold-making, etc are manufacturing processes not world-renowned for their ability to keep things precise.
- giantg2 3y ago
  Yeah, most parts in simple designs do not need to be super precise. Some hand fitting might be necessary.
  - eindiran 3y ago
    This is in the context of firearms, which are presumably modern repeating firearms, where they will cease to function if the tolerances are wrong.
    - OkayPhysicist 3y ago
      You can get remarkably far with pretty crude tolerances, especially with lower pressure, pistol rounds. For example a direct-blowback, open-bolt submachine guns akin to what was used in WW2 can be pretty easily designed and built by anybody with a passable understanding of mechanics.
      - eindiran 3y ago
        Again, we're talking about casting. Take a look at an Owen or a Sten and get back to me on what parts you think can be plausibly lost-PLA casted.

pandemicsoul 3y ago

It's so tiring to have these kinds of conversations with folks who do not understand the legislative process. There's no need to treat the legislator like an idiot. She's doing what EVERY legislator does, which is to identify a problem ("printed guns are a loophole in how we manage guns in this state") and saying she wants to find a solution to that problem. One mechanism by which legislators do that is by writing draft bills and then helping it through the legislative process to be improved, sorta like how you'd write a draft essay for a college class and then go back for a second and third pass before submitting it. As part of this process, people who are in favor of no legislation will come forward, people who are in favor of strong legislation will come forward, she'll hear their advice and feedback. If she's lucky, the bill will be seen by a committee who will hold hearings and re-draft it. When you see a "ready to go bill," it's either been through a dozen-step process in this legislative session OR it's been brought up in a dozen different sessions and been improved along the way as legislators have to re-introduce all the bills they are sponsoring in each legislative session. The legislator is not an expert in the issue, and I doubt she's claiming she is. She's proposing the broad strokes of a solution to a problem she sees. The point is not to pass the bill in its current form – it's to figure out how to solve the problem, using this general idea as the starting point.

doctorwho42 3y ago
Fundamentally though, the 'problem' she sees, is it really a problem? How many gun deaths in the past 10 years were related to 3d printed guns or gun parts? Is that number greater than 1% of gun deaths in the past year of the same area? (1% of gun deaths in 10yrs / 1% in 1 year) If it's not, than I would surmise that this is a non-issue nor a problem. And that instead it is a older representative that needs to retire instead of proposing laws that drastically damage the fr edoms of the citizenry. To take away the democratization of manufacturing plastic parts from its citizens will irreparably damage the community this legislature feigns to serve.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Rebelgecko 3y ago