4 ms·

I am not a citizen of the UK nor from the US, if this system is enough for you, then by all means feel free to disagree. In my book an elected official is some

I am not a citizen of the UK nor from the US, if this system is enough for you, then by all means feel free to disagree. In my book an elected official is someone who was voted in office. If you are not elected then you are appointed. If you are appointed you do not need to be accountable because the people cannot revoke your mandate nor can they vote you out. To me it seems inconceivable that someone who was appointed can decide to bring forward such a law and not have to defend it.

mrtksn 3y ago
As I said, EC members are appointed by the elected governments and EP and the EP members are directly elected. If you don't like it you can start or join a political movement to change it or political movement to exit the EU. However it's not O.K. to go around claim that those people are appointees of 3rd parties and are agents of companies and rule with impunity and the EU citizens can't do anything about it. It's a misrepresentation of the reality. It's like claiming that British PM and the US president are not elected. While technically true, it misrepresent the democratic system.
- zosima 3y ago
  The individual commissioners are appointed by national governments in a completely opaque process. The exact distribution of responsibilities of the EC and who is to lead the commission is determined through international diplomacy. Sure, the democratically elected parliament can veto the commission. But not propose a new one. To even start comparing it with elections for US president and British PM is disingenuous at best.
sakjur 3y ago
Is there any country that directly elects their government and its ministers? The commission is appointed by the European council (i.e. prime ministers and presidents of the member states) and approved by the parliament (your directly elected representatives). They _should_ absolutely be held accountable in the same way we hold ministers accountable in the member states.
- throwaway60722 3y ago
  Yes, most EU countries directly elect the parliament and the government is formed from the parliament members - usually the winning party/coalition, but not always. In some it's a tradition that the winning party leader gets the first shot at getting their cabinet approved by the parliament, then a second shot, and if they can't do it the president appoints somebody else.
orwin 3y ago
Your ministers are appointed, no?
- throwaway60722 3y ago
  No, they are members of the parliament.
  - DoughnutHole 3y ago
    But they are not directly elected to ministerial positions. In a parliamentary system (ie most countries in the EU) members of parliament are elected. Parliament appoints a premier. Premier appoints ministers with parliamentary approval. EU commissioners are nominated by the member states subject to their own laws. Typically that means they are chosen by your elected government. If you want a directly elected commissioner that’s a matter of national politics. Your country is free to change its laws to select a commission nominee via a national vote.
    - throwaway60722 3y ago
      I don't want "a" directly elected commissioner. I want a directly elected Commission. The same system would suffice - chosen by the elected parliament among its members.
      - orwin 3y ago
        That would actually be a great idea, because then political parties and voting citizens would have a bigger reason to try to win European elections. Probably would make the parliament less liberal-conservative too.
  - orwin 3y ago
    Your system is better than mine then.
mrmanner 3y ago
> and not have to defend it The commission has to defend their suggestions or they won't make it through council and parliament. And if an individual commissioner is only delivering suggestions that get voted down, they're not likely to get reappointed. Is there room for improvement? Sure. Is this specific suggestion a complete piece of trash? Sure. Will that be different if we have some kind of presidential election on the EU level? Not so sure.
- petre 3y ago
  They're repeatedly suggesting things like this until the MPs are confused enough and vote yes. At least that's what happened with the copyright directive. Just like with the migrant quotas that Hungary and Poland are boycotting. Meanwhile, the far right gets more votes because people are fed up with this BS and naïve enough to vote for them.
afiori 3y ago
> people cannot revoke your mandate Most elected position have an unrevokable mandate, unelected positions are typically easier to revoke. > If you are appointed you do not need to be accountable They need to be accountable to who can revoke their position, which is generally elected officials. I am not defending the EU here, I am not well informed enough in that regard; I am just criticizing the false dycothomy of elected/appointed when electoral systems create a much bigger variance of effects.
melesian 3y ago
It appears you don't understand the role of the directly elected EU parliament. It can and has fired the entire Commission in the past, and it must approve EU legislation. Much more fun to subscribe to a conspiracy theory about all-powerful people behind the curtain though.

mrtksn 3y ago

As I said, EC members are appointed by the elected governments and EP and the EP members are directly elected. If you don't like it you can start or join a political movement to change it or political movement to exit the EU. However it's not O.K. to go around claim that those people are appointees of 3rd parties and are agents of companies and rule with impunity and the EU citizens can't do anything about it. It's a misrepresentation of the reality. It's like claiming that British PM and the US president are not elected. While technically true, it misrepresent the democratic system.

zosima 3y ago
The individual commissioners are appointed by national governments in a completely opaque process. The exact distribution of responsibilities of the EC and who is to lead the commission is determined through international diplomacy. Sure, the democratically elected parliament can veto the commission. But not propose a new one. To even start comparing it with elections for US president and British PM is disingenuous at best.

sakjur 3y ago

Is there any country that directly elects their government and its ministers? The commission is appointed by the European council (i.e. prime ministers and presidents of the member states) and approved by the parliament (your directly elected representatives). They _should_ absolutely be held accountable in the same way we hold ministers accountable in the member states.

throwaway60722 3y ago
Yes, most EU countries directly elect the parliament and the government is formed from the parliament members - usually the winning party/coalition, but not always. In some it's a tradition that the winning party leader gets the first shot at getting their cabinet approved by the parliament, then a second shot, and if they can't do it the president appoints somebody else.

orwin 3y ago

Your ministers are appointed, no?

throwaway60722 3y ago
No, they are members of the parliament.
- DoughnutHole 3y ago
  But they are not directly elected to ministerial positions. In a parliamentary system (ie most countries in the EU) members of parliament are elected. Parliament appoints a premier. Premier appoints ministers with parliamentary approval. EU commissioners are nominated by the member states subject to their own laws. Typically that means they are chosen by your elected government. If you want a directly elected commissioner that’s a matter of national politics. Your country is free to change its laws to select a commission nominee via a national vote.
  - throwaway60722 3y ago
    I don't want "a" directly elected commissioner. I want a directly elected Commission. The same system would suffice - chosen by the elected parliament among its members.
    - orwin 3y ago
      That would actually be a great idea, because then political parties and voting citizens would have a bigger reason to try to win European elections. Probably would make the parliament less liberal-conservative too.
- orwin 3y ago
  Your system is better than mine then.

mrmanner 3y ago

> and not have to defend it The commission has to defend their suggestions or they won't make it through council and parliament. And if an individual commissioner is only delivering suggestions that get voted down, they're not likely to get reappointed. Is there room for improvement? Sure. Is this specific suggestion a complete piece of trash? Sure. Will that be different if we have some kind of presidential election on the EU level? Not so sure.

petre 3y ago
They're repeatedly suggesting things like this until the MPs are confused enough and vote yes. At least that's what happened with the copyright directive. Just like with the migrant quotas that Hungary and Poland are boycotting. Meanwhile, the far right gets more votes because people are fed up with this BS and naïve enough to vote for them.

afiori 3y ago

> people cannot revoke your mandate Most elected position have an unrevokable mandate, unelected positions are typically easier to revoke. > If you are appointed you do not need to be accountable They need to be accountable to who can revoke their position, which is generally elected officials. I am not defending the EU here, I am not well informed enough in that regard; I am just criticizing the false dycothomy of elected/appointed when electoral systems create a much bigger variance of effects.

melesian 3y ago

It appears you don't understand the role of the directly elected EU parliament. It can and has fired the entire Commission in the past, and it must approve EU legislation. Much more fun to subscribe to a conspiracy theory about all-powerful people behind the curtain though.