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The EC members who currently are sponsoring this bill (Chat Control 2.0) are not elected, they are appointed. They do not answer to anyone and they collude wit

The EC members who currently are sponsoring this bill (Chat Control 2.0) are not elected, they are appointed. They do not answer to anyone and they collude with lobby organizations to push an agenda. This is the far from being a democratic process.

pjmlp 3y ago
Indeed, it doesn't change the fact that the countries themselves might implement such things. Many dictators were democratly elected.
mrtksn 3y ago
They are appointed by the elected(the governments of the countries and the European Parliament, which are all elected). When you say it like "they are not elected but appointed", you make it sound like some 3rd party is appointing them and you have no power on it but those who appoint the members of EC are the members of EP(elected every 5 years) and the national governments(elected accordingly to the local laws). If you you want to make it sound undemocratic, you can say that the US president is elected by the electoral college and citizens of the USA have no way to vote for their president.
- rdm_blackhole 3y ago
  So they are not elected? Right? Therefore they are not accountable to the public.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    Fun fact, the American president and the British prime ministers are also not elected. If you like to argue over technicalities, we can do that.
    - throwaway60722 3y ago
      Who cares? I don't live in UK or USA. They can have whatever disfunctional system they want, doesn't mean I will tolerate it at my home because of that. There are dictators elsewhere, should I have one at home too?
    - rdm_blackhole 3y ago
      I am not a citizen of the UK nor from the US, if this system is enough for you, then by all means feel free to disagree. In my book an elected official is someone who was voted in office. If you are not elected then you are appointed. If you are appointed you do not need to be accountable because the people cannot revoke your mandate nor can they vote you out. To me it seems inconceivable that someone who was appointed can decide to bring forward such a law and not have to defend it.
      - mrtksn 3y ago
        As I said, EC members are appointed by the elected governments and EP and the EP members are directly elected. If you don't like it you can start or join a political movement to change it or political movement to exit the EU. However it's not O.K. to go around claim that those people are appointees of 3rd parties and are agents of companies and rule with impunity and the EU citizens can't do anything about it. It's a misrepresentation of the reality. It's like claiming that British PM and the US president are not elected. While technically true, it misrepresent the democratic system.
        zosima 3y ago
        The individual commissioners are appointed by national governments in a completely opaque process. The exact distribution of responsibilities of the EC and who is to lead the commission is determined through international diplomacy. Sure, the democratically elected parliament can veto the commission. But not propose a new one. To even start comparing it with elections for US president and British PM is disingenuous at best.
      - sakjur 3y ago
        Is there any country that directly elects their government and its ministers? The commission is appointed by the European council (i.e. prime ministers and presidents of the member states) and approved by the parliament (your directly elected representatives). They _should_ absolutely be held accountable in the same way we hold ministers accountable in the member states.
    - danaris 3y ago
      While this is true in a practical sense for the British PM, it is only true in the most technical legal sense for the US President. Yes; it is true that the Constitution provides for the election of electors, who will then choose the President. But in fact, while the Electoral College makes the precise mechanism of election slightly indirect and the methods of weighting the votes byzantine, in any practical sense there's no question that the US president is elected, and not appointed.
  - Arnt 3y ago
    Lots of important jobs aren't elected. But got the job by being elected repeatedly for other things. Many important EU figures have been elected repeatedly for national parliaments, as national ministers or for leadership positions in major national political parties, and only after that got an EU job. I think it's by design: The jobs are put together as a nationally/politically balanced team, picked from from a large set of candidates who have generally been accepted by national voters over a period of time.
- SenAnder 3y ago
  > They are appointed by the elected The more indirect the method is, the more control shifts from voters to lobbyists and insiders versed in the system.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    IMHO that’s about centralization of power, not the directness. How many businessmen you see going around and promoting EU? if it’s that easy to influence they should love it. Here’s a quote from Anthony Hilton about the media magnate Murdock: I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. ‘That’s easy,’ he replied. ‘When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.’”
    - chopin 3y ago
      I wished that was true...
      - verinus 3y ago
        much rather: he had to spend significantly more for them to do so...
- zoobab 3y ago
  "They are appointed by the elected(the governments of the countries and the European Parliament, which are all elected)." The executive (governments) should not become legislators, under the principle of seperation of powers of Montesquieu.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > The executive (governments) should not become legislators, under the principle of seperation of powers of Montesquieu. What if Montesquieu was just wrong and systems with fused or subordinated executive and legislative powers actually just work better in pretty much every way that separation-of-powers systems? Yeah, the US unusually strongly applies Montesquieu in its Constitutional design, but the US isn't particularly well-governed among modern democracies. (Personally, I think the dominance of poor electoral methods and the resulting partisan duopoly is a bigger effect than separation of powers here, but...)
Arnt 3y ago
A quick glance at Wikipedia suggests that the main sponsor is Ylva Johansson, who is not presently an elected politician, because she stepped down in 2019 after being a member of the swedish parliament for 13 continuous years, for this party: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Party_(Sweden) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Party_(Sweden) I have the impression that this is often the case: EC members are recruited from members of national parliament, ministers and people who stepped down from either of those recently. So technically you're correct, she's not elected. But she got the job by being elected.
- rdm_blackhole 3y ago
  Small reminder that the left party described in your comment is actually formerly known as the communist party in Sweden and that they supported during WW2 the invading soviet forces vs Finland. That may explain why she is interested in bringing this legislation forward. I think privacy is not at the forefront of preoccupations for communists.
  - Arnt 3y ago
    When I grew up (far north in Norway) it was said that filling out a membership form in the communist party would get your phone tapped at once. She's older than I am and I'd be surprised of the Swedes treated their communists any different in first 30 years of her life. Anyway, my point is that she's been repeatedly elected. She didn't get her present job in an election, but someone who's won three elections in a row recently is democratically legitimate, even if the current job isn't directly elected.
  - tankenmate 3y ago
    This is a false equivalency argument. It would be just as false as saying "rdm_blackhole supports decriminalising incitement because he supports free speech".
    - zosima 3y ago
      She joined the the so-called Vänsterpartiet when their full name was: Vänsterpartiet - kommunisterna (VPK) aka The left party - communists. At that time the party had ties to eastern germany and the Soviet Union. She was elected to parliament as representative for vänsterpartiet - kommunisterna. There is no false equivalency whatsoever here.

pjmlp 3y ago

Indeed, it doesn't change the fact that the countries themselves might implement such things. Many dictators were democratly elected.

mrtksn 3y ago

They are appointed by the elected(the governments of the countries and the European Parliament, which are all elected). When you say it like "they are not elected but appointed", you make it sound like some 3rd party is appointing them and you have no power on it but those who appoint the members of EC are the members of EP(elected every 5 years) and the national governments(elected accordingly to the local laws). If you you want to make it sound undemocratic, you can say that the US president is elected by the electoral college and citizens of the USA have no way to vote for their president.

rdm_blackhole 3y ago
So they are not elected? Right? Therefore they are not accountable to the public.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Fun fact, the American president and the British prime ministers are also not elected. If you like to argue over technicalities, we can do that.
  - throwaway60722 3y ago
    Who cares? I don't live in UK or USA. They can have whatever disfunctional system they want, doesn't mean I will tolerate it at my home because of that. There are dictators elsewhere, should I have one at home too?
  - rdm_blackhole 3y ago
    I am not a citizen of the UK nor from the US, if this system is enough for you, then by all means feel free to disagree. In my book an elected official is someone who was voted in office. If you are not elected then you are appointed. If you are appointed you do not need to be accountable because the people cannot revoke your mandate nor can they vote you out. To me it seems inconceivable that someone who was appointed can decide to bring forward such a law and not have to defend it.
    - mrtksn 3y ago
      As I said, EC members are appointed by the elected governments and EP and the EP members are directly elected. If you don't like it you can start or join a political movement to change it or political movement to exit the EU. However it's not O.K. to go around claim that those people are appointees of 3rd parties and are agents of companies and rule with impunity and the EU citizens can't do anything about it. It's a misrepresentation of the reality. It's like claiming that British PM and the US president are not elected. While technically true, it misrepresent the democratic system.
      - zosima 3y ago
        The individual commissioners are appointed by national governments in a completely opaque process. The exact distribution of responsibilities of the EC and who is to lead the commission is determined through international diplomacy. Sure, the democratically elected parliament can veto the commission. But not propose a new one. To even start comparing it with elections for US president and British PM is disingenuous at best.
    - sakjur 3y ago
      Is there any country that directly elects their government and its ministers? The commission is appointed by the European council (i.e. prime ministers and presidents of the member states) and approved by the parliament (your directly elected representatives). They _should_ absolutely be held accountable in the same way we hold ministers accountable in the member states.
  - danaris 3y ago
    While this is true in a practical sense for the British PM, it is only true in the most technical legal sense for the US President. Yes; it is true that the Constitution provides for the election of electors, who will then choose the President. But in fact, while the Electoral College makes the precise mechanism of election slightly indirect and the methods of weighting the votes byzantine, in any practical sense there's no question that the US president is elected, and not appointed.
- Arnt 3y ago
  Lots of important jobs aren't elected. But got the job by being elected repeatedly for other things. Many important EU figures have been elected repeatedly for national parliaments, as national ministers or for leadership positions in major national political parties, and only after that got an EU job. I think it's by design: The jobs are put together as a nationally/politically balanced team, picked from from a large set of candidates who have generally been accepted by national voters over a period of time.
SenAnder 3y ago
> They are appointed by the elected The more indirect the method is, the more control shifts from voters to lobbyists and insiders versed in the system.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  IMHO that’s about centralization of power, not the directness. How many businessmen you see going around and promoting EU? if it’s that easy to influence they should love it. Here’s a quote from Anthony Hilton about the media magnate Murdock: I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. ‘That’s easy,’ he replied. ‘When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.’”
  - chopin 3y ago
    I wished that was true...
    - verinus 3y ago
      much rather: he had to spend significantly more for them to do so...
zoobab 3y ago
"They are appointed by the elected(the governments of the countries and the European Parliament, which are all elected)." The executive (governments) should not become legislators, under the principle of seperation of powers of Montesquieu.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > The executive (governments) should not become legislators, under the principle of seperation of powers of Montesquieu. What if Montesquieu was just wrong and systems with fused or subordinated executive and legislative powers actually just work better in pretty much every way that separation-of-powers systems? Yeah, the US unusually strongly applies Montesquieu in its Constitutional design, but the US isn't particularly well-governed among modern democracies. (Personally, I think the dominance of poor electoral methods and the resulting partisan duopoly is a bigger effect than separation of powers here, but...)

Arnt 3y ago

A quick glance at Wikipedia suggests that the main sponsor is Ylva Johansson, who is not presently an elected politician, because she stepped down in 2019 after being a member of the swedish parliament for 13 continuous years, for this party: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Party_(Sweden) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Party_(Sweden) I have the impression that this is often the case: EC members are recruited from members of national parliament, ministers and people who stepped down from either of those recently. So technically you're correct, she's not elected. But she got the job by being elected.

rdm_blackhole 3y ago
Small reminder that the left party described in your comment is actually formerly known as the communist party in Sweden and that they supported during WW2 the invading soviet forces vs Finland. That may explain why she is interested in bringing this legislation forward. I think privacy is not at the forefront of preoccupations for communists.
- Arnt 3y ago
  When I grew up (far north in Norway) it was said that filling out a membership form in the communist party would get your phone tapped at once. She's older than I am and I'd be surprised of the Swedes treated their communists any different in first 30 years of her life. Anyway, my point is that she's been repeatedly elected. She didn't get her present job in an election, but someone who's won three elections in a row recently is democratically legitimate, even if the current job isn't directly elected.
- tankenmate 3y ago
  This is a false equivalency argument. It would be just as false as saying "rdm_blackhole supports decriminalising incitement because he supports free speech".
  - zosima 3y ago
    She joined the the so-called Vänsterpartiet when their full name was: Vänsterpartiet - kommunisterna (VPK) aka The left party - communists. At that time the party had ties to eastern germany and the Soviet Union. She was elected to parliament as representative for vänsterpartiet - kommunisterna. There is no false equivalency whatsoever here.