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I'm an actual RHCE. This thread has to be some big Red Hatter click farm or something. The artificial positivity is striking. Is Red Hat threatening to pull fun

I'm an actual RHCE. This thread has to be some big Red Hatter click farm or something. The artificial positivity is striking. Is Red Hat threatening to pull funding for this project or something? Just weird. Cockpit is okay but it's basically Red Hat's equivalent to the Windows Server Manager tool, and I have no doubt it was directly inspired by Server Manager. It's development and improvement over the years has been painfully slow. Nobody who is comfortable with an ssh session uses Cockpit, except maybe to create new VMs, and even then all of these comments comparing it to Proxmox are just whack because it doesn't have a quarter of the features the Proxmox UI offers. The utility for managing VMs is a recent development and even then I still prefer the Virtual Machine Manager tool because I don't want to deal with the latency increase and other limitations of working through a browser. But anyway, there's a ton of things you can't do with Cockpit, and never will be able to do. It's for people who want to point and click, can't do a bash for/while loop, don't understand pipe chaining commands, and don't like using vim. Like happyweasel said, it's basically webmin for Red Hat. It's kinda cool, but it's so old now and development has been so slow and it's been so over-hyped that I don't pay attention to it at all and I've never used it except what was required to get certified.

KronisLV 3y ago
> Like happyweasel said, it's basically webmin for Red Hat. Seems pretty cool to me, "meet your users where they are" and all that. I actually wonder what other options for this sort of web based management panel there are out there, maybe more DEB oriented ones.
minimaul 3y ago
It's a very useful tool to manage libvirt + KVM remotely without trawling through poorly documented XML, it's accessible from any platform - even an iPad, and it requires next to no setup (basically install the package and add a cert and you're done). I consider these big pluses, I use Cockpit on Debian on my servers that run VMs rather than something like Proxmox, because 1. it's much less invasive, 2. the machines tend to run other things too, like docker containers. Have been using it for this since ~2019. The stats views are useful too, but I wouldn't install it for that on it's own. edit: and honestly, there's not another good (maintained!) option that fits the niche of 'let me create libvirt VMs from a web browser on a single machine without taking over my whole system'.
Kiro 3y ago
> Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Karrot_Kream 3y ago
> Nobody who is comfortable with an ssh session uses Cockpit > It's for people who want to point and click, can't do a bash for/while loop, don't understand pipe chaining commands, and don't like using vim. Lol! Are you ready to deploy an ssh-capable terminal emulator at all times? What's wrong with making simple tasks simple? I run multiple Raspberry Pi cameras (with nicer camera modules) to watch the pets if the family travels. The RTSP camera streams run in a systemd unit on their boxes. I have some healthchecks to make sure packets are being streamed as other systemd units. Each camera gets its own private IP on a ZeroTier network I manage. Since copilot is only run on demand, it's a no brainer to have around for administration. Sometimes one of the cameras just starts streaming out blank frames. I'd much rather manage this through a copilot web interface on my phone when I'm on vacation than find a keyboard to use SSH with and restart the camera stream unit. I mean sure, I could write a healthcheck which checks whether blank frames are being emitted, but it's just so much easier to restart it via copilot than it is to write that healthcheck and it only ever happens a few times a year. Shrug.
- arghwhat 3y ago
  > Lol! Are you ready to deploy an ssh-capable terminal emulator at all times? What terminal emulator isn't ssh-capable? Where would you not be able to open a terminal emulator? I am so confused. > What's wrong with making simple tasks simple? The limited tasks exposed by cockpit are also simple (or depending on the individual, simpler) in a terminal, but if you want a point-and-click UI for just a few things, go ahead. That cockpit is very limited and seemingly has no future does not mean you can't like what it does now. Just might be worth considering if there are better-supported alternatives.
  - Karrot_Kream 3y ago
    > Where would you not be able to open a terminal emulator? I am so confused. A mobile device. I don't use terminal emulators without access to some non-touch keyboard so I want a simple interface on my mobile device. > That cockpit is very limited and seemingly has no future does not mean you can't like what it does now. Just might be worth considering if there are better-supported alternatives. Sure then compare cockpit with other webmin-esque tools, not a terminal emulator. These are different interfaces, much like I don't compare a voice interface with a mouse-oriented one.
dig1 3y ago
I'd say it is half-baked webmin. You can only use it with NetworkManager, and if you have an even remotely complex network setup for VMs, NetworkManager usually must be turned off, which makes Cockpit practically unusable. virt-manager [1] is way more powerful for those who like managing VMs with GUI. [1] https://virt-manager.org/ https://virt-manager.org/
- minimaul 3y ago
  I've not noticed any dependencies on NetworkManager when using Cockpit for VMs on Debian? My servers configure their networking using Debian's usual ifupdown, and NetworkManager isn't even installed!
  - dig1 3y ago
    What Cockpit version? Maybe it is compiled differently on RH-based distros.
    - minimaul 3y ago
      https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=Cockpit&searchon=names&suite=all&section=all https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=Cockpit&searchon... says 188 to 287, for versions I’ve used.
INTPenis 3y ago
A friend of mine actually found it very useful, and I think it helped him get into selfhosting on Fedora and RHEL. Now he mostly uses Ansible but I remember hearing a lot about cockpit during the start of his journey. He would use it to manage VMs, containers, and get a better grasp of SElinux denials.
worksonmine 3y ago
> It's for people who want to point and click, can't do a bash for/while loop, don't understand pipe chaining commands, and don't like using vim. I hate the mouse so much that I've got a script to move it off-screen (it follows my focus), and I usually live in my terminal. But trying Fedora on one of my Pis I tried cockpit since it was installed by default and I'm surprised how much I like it. I think the lack of features is a good thing, there's not much bloat and it recommends extra packages I could like. While i love my terminal cockpit has been nice to get a quick glance. So far the only thing I'm missing is support for doas. Every tool does not have to be able to do all the things.
oli-g 3y ago
> It's for people who want to point and click, can't do a bash for/while loop, don't understand pipe chaining commands, and don't like using vim "Instagram filters are for people who don't know how to work with Photoshop layers, don't understand basic color blending operations, and who just want to swipe." I mean, yes.
- distcs 3y ago
  I have no problem viewing pictures shared by those who don't understand basic color blending and just want to swipe. But I may have a problem with people who can't do a bash for/while loop or understand pipe chaining commands be responsible for administrating my company servers. I don't see how the comparison between adminstrating servers and sharing pictures on social media is a useful comparison.
  - addicted 3y ago
    I don’t understand why you think the fact that someone may choose to point and click to do something, a task which depending on the UI can be completely mindless and yet significantly safer eliminating any chance of making a mistake (by throwing in a typo for instance), does not know what a bash for/while loop is? I suspect most people here used the HN web interface to post their comments, even though constructing an HTPP request to send to HN using curl to post your comment wouldn’t be significantly harder. The fact that they used the point and click HM Web UI doesn’t mean they’re incapable of constructing such a request where it actually is needed.
    - shortrounddev2 3y ago
      I think there's an elitism within the Linux world to being a totally CLI user
      - jarym 3y ago
        There does seem to be a bit of it yes, but I thought it had become less common. Reminds me of a colleague I met once who was happily boasting he's a 'real' HTML developer because he writes everything in Microsoft notepad. I took a look at his work and cried inside - broken tags, bad formatting and of course he didn't escape all his characters correctly. Being able to type some characters on a keyboard does not make anyone superior to a user that uses a point+click interface.
saynay 3y ago
I've been using it because we deliver application servers based on Red Hat / CentOS to customers that are unfamiliar with Linux. 99% of the time, they do not need to log in to the command-line for anything. When they do, Cockpit has been a lot easier for them to understand than navigating ssh and bash.
talent_deprived 3y ago
Agree, all of it, like the term Red Hatter. This cockpit-project thing came up on Reddit yesterday as well. It feels like the podman astroturfing that was so strong last year. It also feels like Red Hat hired some of Jetbrains' hyper PR astroturfers who troll the Java and webdev forums on various sites, extolling the extreme virtues of all Jetbrains' products.
- cuddlyogre 3y ago
  Your post implies there is something obviously better. Genuine question. What would that be? I'm always on the lookout for better tools.
- notabee 3y ago
  I tend to not ever interact with /r/linux for this reason. It always seems overrun with corporate mouthpieces. I would really love to see a platform take this problem seriously, but I think for most of them (even this one) that would threaten the money supply either directly or indirectly. I'm tired of the "just don't talk about it" decorum when it's such a huge problem.
brancz 3y ago
I was architect leading all things Observability at Red Hat until 3 years ago there was an absurd amount of support for this project internally I never understood it either. But there were huge amounts of customer support, sales and engineers who adore this thing, I genuinely don't understand the appeal when we had next level cluster-wide Observability supported on and off OpenShift. Even being in a leadership position and basically competing within Red Hat against this, I found no answer to your question.
axus 3y ago
This is a good analogy. Maybe once every few years I'll set up Windows Servers. Being able to use the GUI and not keep a bunch of PowerShell on-hand means I can do it without help, and get on with my day. Meanwhile I'm happier doing everything on command line on Linux, understanding and learning all its features has been worthwhile. But I can imagine some people just want a server set up and to get on with their day.
bonney_io 3y ago
> It's for people who want to point and click, can't do a bash for/while loop, don't understand pipe chaining commands, and don't like using vim. This sounds like the dream.

KronisLV 3y ago

> Like happyweasel said, it's basically webmin for Red Hat. Seems pretty cool to me, "meet your users where they are" and all that. I actually wonder what other options for this sort of web based management panel there are out there, maybe more DEB oriented ones.

minimaul 3y ago

It's a very useful tool to manage libvirt + KVM remotely without trawling through poorly documented XML, it's accessible from any platform - even an iPad, and it requires next to no setup (basically install the package and add a cert and you're done). I consider these big pluses, I use Cockpit on Debian on my servers that run VMs rather than something like Proxmox, because 1. it's much less invasive, 2. the machines tend to run other things too, like docker containers. Have been using it for this since ~2019. The stats views are useful too, but I wouldn't install it for that on it's own. edit: and honestly, there's not another good (maintained!) option that fits the niche of 'let me create libvirt VMs from a web browser on a single machine without taking over my whole system'.

Kiro 3y ago

> Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Karrot_Kream 3y ago

> Nobody who is comfortable with an ssh session uses Cockpit > It's for people who want to point and click, can't do a bash for/while loop, don't understand pipe chaining commands, and don't like using vim. Lol! Are you ready to deploy an ssh-capable terminal emulator at all times? What's wrong with making simple tasks simple? I run multiple Raspberry Pi cameras (with nicer camera modules) to watch the pets if the family travels. The RTSP camera streams run in a systemd unit on their boxes. I have some healthchecks to make sure packets are being streamed as other systemd units. Each camera gets its own private IP on a ZeroTier network I manage. Since copilot is only run on demand, it's a no brainer to have around for administration. Sometimes one of the cameras just starts streaming out blank frames. I'd much rather manage this through a copilot web interface on my phone when I'm on vacation than find a keyboard to use SSH with and restart the camera stream unit. I mean sure, I could write a healthcheck which checks whether blank frames are being emitted, but it's just so much easier to restart it via copilot than it is to write that healthcheck and it only ever happens a few times a year. Shrug.

arghwhat 3y ago
> Lol! Are you ready to deploy an ssh-capable terminal emulator at all times? What terminal emulator isn't ssh-capable? Where would you not be able to open a terminal emulator? I am so confused. > What's wrong with making simple tasks simple? The limited tasks exposed by cockpit are also simple (or depending on the individual, simpler) in a terminal, but if you want a point-and-click UI for just a few things, go ahead. That cockpit is very limited and seemingly has no future does not mean you can't like what it does now. Just might be worth considering if there are better-supported alternatives.
- Karrot_Kream 3y ago
  > Where would you not be able to open a terminal emulator? I am so confused. A mobile device. I don't use terminal emulators without access to some non-touch keyboard so I want a simple interface on my mobile device. > That cockpit is very limited and seemingly has no future does not mean you can't like what it does now. Just might be worth considering if there are better-supported alternatives. Sure then compare cockpit with other webmin-esque tools, not a terminal emulator. These are different interfaces, much like I don't compare a voice interface with a mouse-oriented one.

dig1 3y ago

I'd say it is half-baked webmin. You can only use it with NetworkManager, and if you have an even remotely complex network setup for VMs, NetworkManager usually must be turned off, which makes Cockpit practically unusable. virt-manager [1] is way more powerful for those who like managing VMs with GUI. [1] https://virt-manager.org/ https://virt-manager.org/

minimaul 3y ago
I've not noticed any dependencies on NetworkManager when using Cockpit for VMs on Debian? My servers configure their networking using Debian's usual ifupdown, and NetworkManager isn't even installed!
- dig1 3y ago
  What Cockpit version? Maybe it is compiled differently on RH-based distros.
  - minimaul 3y ago
    https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=Cockpit&searchon=names&suite=all&section=all https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=Cockpit&searchon... says 188 to 287, for versions I’ve used.

INTPenis 3y ago

A friend of mine actually found it very useful, and I think it helped him get into selfhosting on Fedora and RHEL. Now he mostly uses Ansible but I remember hearing a lot about cockpit during the start of his journey. He would use it to manage VMs, containers, and get a better grasp of SElinux denials.

worksonmine 3y ago

> It's for people who want to point and click, can't do a bash for/while loop, don't understand pipe chaining commands, and don't like using vim. I hate the mouse so much that I've got a script to move it off-screen (it follows my focus), and I usually live in my terminal. But trying Fedora on one of my Pis I tried cockpit since it was installed by default and I'm surprised how much I like it. I think the lack of features is a good thing, there's not much bloat and it recommends extra packages I could like. While i love my terminal cockpit has been nice to get a quick glance. So far the only thing I'm missing is support for doas. Every tool does not have to be able to do all the things.

oli-g 3y ago

> It's for people who want to point and click, can't do a bash for/while loop, don't understand pipe chaining commands, and don't like using vim "Instagram filters are for people who don't know how to work with Photoshop layers, don't understand basic color blending operations, and who just want to swipe." I mean, yes.

distcs 3y ago
I have no problem viewing pictures shared by those who don't understand basic color blending and just want to swipe. But I may have a problem with people who can't do a bash for/while loop or understand pipe chaining commands be responsible for administrating my company servers. I don't see how the comparison between adminstrating servers and sharing pictures on social media is a useful comparison.
- addicted 3y ago
  I don’t understand why you think the fact that someone may choose to point and click to do something, a task which depending on the UI can be completely mindless and yet significantly safer eliminating any chance of making a mistake (by throwing in a typo for instance), does not know what a bash for/while loop is? I suspect most people here used the HN web interface to post their comments, even though constructing an HTPP request to send to HN using curl to post your comment wouldn’t be significantly harder. The fact that they used the point and click HM Web UI doesn’t mean they’re incapable of constructing such a request where it actually is needed.
  - shortrounddev2 3y ago
    I think there's an elitism within the Linux world to being a totally CLI user
    - jarym 3y ago
      There does seem to be a bit of it yes, but I thought it had become less common. Reminds me of a colleague I met once who was happily boasting he's a 'real' HTML developer because he writes everything in Microsoft notepad. I took a look at his work and cried inside - broken tags, bad formatting and of course he didn't escape all his characters correctly. Being able to type some characters on a keyboard does not make anyone superior to a user that uses a point+click interface.

saynay 3y ago

I've been using it because we deliver application servers based on Red Hat / CentOS to customers that are unfamiliar with Linux. 99% of the time, they do not need to log in to the command-line for anything. When they do, Cockpit has been a lot easier for them to understand than navigating ssh and bash.

talent_deprived 3y ago

Agree, all of it, like the term Red Hatter. This cockpit-project thing came up on Reddit yesterday as well. It feels like the podman astroturfing that was so strong last year. It also feels like Red Hat hired some of Jetbrains' hyper PR astroturfers who troll the Java and webdev forums on various sites, extolling the extreme virtues of all Jetbrains' products.

cuddlyogre 3y ago
Your post implies there is something obviously better. Genuine question. What would that be? I'm always on the lookout for better tools.
notabee 3y ago
I tend to not ever interact with /r/linux for this reason. It always seems overrun with corporate mouthpieces. I would really love to see a platform take this problem seriously, but I think for most of them (even this one) that would threaten the money supply either directly or indirectly. I'm tired of the "just don't talk about it" decorum when it's such a huge problem.

brancz 3y ago

I was architect leading all things Observability at Red Hat until 3 years ago there was an absurd amount of support for this project internally I never understood it either. But there were huge amounts of customer support, sales and engineers who adore this thing, I genuinely don't understand the appeal when we had next level cluster-wide Observability supported on and off OpenShift. Even being in a leadership position and basically competing within Red Hat against this, I found no answer to your question.

axus 3y ago

This is a good analogy. Maybe once every few years I'll set up Windows Servers. Being able to use the GUI and not keep a bunch of PowerShell on-hand means I can do it without help, and get on with my day. Meanwhile I'm happier doing everything on command line on Linux, understanding and learning all its features has been worthwhile. But I can imagine some people just want a server set up and to get on with their day.

bonney_io 3y ago

> It's for people who want to point and click, can't do a bash for/while loop, don't understand pipe chaining commands, and don't like using vim. This sounds like the dream.