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> Marx’s claim is that there are functional relations between technology and social structure, so that you can’t just combine them any old way. Marx was, in thi
by codeflo 3y ago
> Marx’s claim is that there are functional relations between technology and social structure, so that you can’t just combine them any old way. Marx was, in this regard, certainly right, hence the sociological naiveté that lies at the heart of Dune. Feudalism with energy weapons makes no sense – a feudal society could not produce energy weapons, and energy weapons would undermine feudal social relations.
This doesn’t do justice to the world building of Dune. Technology is very limited. Computers are banned (for good reasons), and using those energy weapons is also forbidden in most situations. Thus, combat is once again dominated by the kind of melee encounters that were also historically the domain of a trained warrior caste. All of this is explored in detail in the later books, which maybe the author hasn’t read? If anything, Dune deeply affirms that society mirrors technology rather than creating a simple “naive feudal sci-fi” world as claimed here.
I haven’t read much past that yet since the article is very wordy, and it’s hard to be motivated to push forward once you stop being convinced that the author has a point.
- wanderingbit 3y ago> combat is once again dominated by the kind of melee encounters that were also historically the domain of a trained warrior caste Correct me if I'm wrong here, but does Herbert ever give a reason for why the characters in Dune do not use gunpowder/projectile weapons (a.k.a. guns), similar to modern armies? I never understood why the characters in Dune bothered with this melee warfare, except maybe for ceremonial reasons. It's worth reading the whole article. If you've ever read any of Iain Bank's books you'll definitely appreciate it.
- taneq 3y agoDon't they have some kind of small scale force field technology that stops anything (eg. bullets) moving above a certain speed? iirc there was a duel where Paul Atreides was consistently a tiny bit slow on his attacks, due to his training in aristocratic duelling where everyone has personal shields, which was interpreted as him deliberately toying with his opponent. For bonus points, energy weapons weren't really used because if one hit a shield, it would cause an explosion (centered on the energy weapon maybe?) that would take out half a city.
- Mystrl 3y ago> For bonus points, energy weapons weren't really used because if one hit a shield, it would cause an explosion This never really made much sense to me. IRRC when an energy weapon hits a shield either the emitter or the shield generator blows up. Since shields are protecting something while the emitter can be anywhere to me the logical outcome seems to be energy weapons everywhere and no shields at all.
- angry_octet 3y agoIt totally did not make sense. Anyone would be able to generate a massive explosion from readily available components. And there's no explanation where that energy would come from. A small edit that would make this work: energy beam weapons could not penetrate a shield, and just reveals the location of the shooting weapon.
- Animats 3y agoThat's desperately trying to tweak the technology so that he gets a society where knife fighters matter. Actually, those knife guys would be vulnerable to ordinary riot-control weapons - tear gas, Mace, flash-bangs, big plastic shields, etc. Or an RPG with a solid warhead to knock someone out of the fight by sheer kinetic energy. Herbert was writing before every combat organization had RPGs.
- angry_octet 3y agoThere is mention that the shields act as molecular filters, protecting against poison gases. And the shockwave energy of an explosion was negated as an excessively fast high/low pressure wave front. Same with flash bangs. Big plastic shields are just another close quarters combat device, and not particularly useful unless in a phalanx.
- Animats 3y agoMass times velocity equals mass times velocity. If you're hit by a solid round with an RPG rocket behind it, you're going down, no matter how good your forcefield armor is. Momentum is roughly that of an entire NFL offensive line.
- zrail 3y agoShielding technology that can be miniaturized to protect a single person. Person-sized shields were tuned to only protect against higher velocity kinetics because if it goes too low it stops allowing air exchange.
- varjag 3y agoWhich is a goof since air molecules at room temperature whizz at about 500m/s.
- otabdeveloper4 3y agoIt's probably tuned to momentum, not velocity. (Momentum is really what we talk about when we talk about "speed" colloquially anyways.)
- varjag 3y agoHow would it work then though, as the momentum of air draft is still much less than that of a slow striking blade.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- moffkalast 3y agoI think the problem is that you're trying to apply logic to a plot device.
- WithinReason 3y agomaybe it's in kg/s
- Evidlo 3y agokg*s ?
- narism 3y agoI believe this is because of the widespread use of shield projectors which repel anything moving too fast (faster than a slow knife stroke or hunter seeker). Some other interactions around shields: Lasers hitting shields basically results in a fusion explosion which would bring down the wrath of the Houses/Imperium. Shields are not used much on Dune due to shorting out from storms and attracting worms. This results in some use of projectile weapons when the Harkonnens seal the Atreides troops in caves with mortars or the Fremen shoot the noses of off the Emperors spaceships with artillery.
- stevekemp 3y agoThe general answer has already been covered - their magical shields protect against projectile weapons. (Though of course there's always the feeling that the use of massive projectiles would overwhelm them.) That said, and something I don't think anybody else has mentioned in the thread, in the first Dune novel when the Sardaukar land on Arrakis and have a bunch of fights after the betrayal they _do_ use projectile weapons, which has the affect of trapping the Atreides who'd retreated into caves. It is brought up later that these weapons aren't worth returning, because their use was a one-off. These cannons were considered a "quirky surprise" rather than a useful weapon.
- rsynnott 3y ago> All of this is explored in detail in the later books, which maybe the author hasn’t read? If you mean the Brian Herbert prequels, a lot of fans don't really consider those to be canonical. I don't remember much exploration of this in the later Frank Herbert books; if anything most of the restrictions are eventually abandoned. > Computers are banned (for good reasons) It's at least _hinted_ that this was more about a moral panic than anything else. Dune's technology setup is contrived to produce a particular type of society; it's one of the most extreme examples of this approach. There's nothing wrong with this (and it's very common in sci-fi) but it is what it is.
- jbgt 3y agoActually, computers were banned because humans were enslaved to thinking machines for several millennia. The butlerian jihad is when mankind rose up and physically destroyed every "thinking machine". Then they developed mentat schools to make human calculators / logicians.
- rsynnott 3y ago> Actually, computers were banned because humans were enslaved to thinking machines for several millennia. Only if you accept Brian Herbert's additions to the canon. Assuming that, like all right-thinking people, you treat those as apocryphal, it's left _very_ vague as it exactly what it was all about, and it's at least implied that it was not particularly rational. You can find people today who'll tell you that humans are enslaved by computers because, I dunno, we use TikTok too much or something.