5 ms·

The Polish Election Bazaar

43 points by miki123211 3y ago

jruohonen 3y ago
"Poland has a law called “election silence”. It makes it illegal for anyone currently residing within Poland to do any kind of political campaigning on Election Day or the day before. This includes making speeches, putting up posters, airing political commercials, even public posts on social media, though not private conversations or messages in non-public groups. If there's also a referendum that is only valid when a big enough quorum of voters is present, you're not even allowed to encourage people to vote, as that can impact the referendum results. This law supposedly exists to give voters a chance to make their decisions in peace, without constantly being bombarded with propaganda from all sides. Many people (often from opposing political factions) claim that the law is outdated and should be repealed, but it doesn't seem to favor one particular side over any other, so nothing has been done about it so far." Many countries (such as, say, France) have similar laws. Sounds okay to me. So what's the issue here?
- ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
  > Many countries (such as, say, France) have similar laws. The Indian version is called the Model Code of Conduct and it is enforced by the Election Commission of India.[1] The ECI even takes control of the bureaucratic and law and order machinery in the period leading up to the elections. > So what's the issue here? Typical left wing complaints about anything and everything in countries where they don't see a chance of returning to power by electoral means. If the people are not voting for them, it is obviously because the ruling party and their supporters are fascists. There can be no other reason. These narratives are built and spread using their control of media. Their friends in the Global Left help amplify the message. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Code_of_Conduct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Code_of_Conduct
  - andrepd 3y ago
    Saying that media outlets are in the hands of "the global Left" borders on the delirious. Especially when one of the chief complaints about the democratic backsliding in Poland and Hungary is precisely the encroachment on freedom of press (together with the erosion of the separation of powers).
    - ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - eigenket 3y ago
        Speaking as someone who lives in Poland. You don't have a damn clue what you're talking about when it comes to Polish politics.
        ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
        > You don't have a damn clue what you're talking about when it comes to Polish politics. Only what I read in the Western press. But given what I know about their reporting about India, it is hard to give them the benefit of the doubt when they attack right-wing governments running other countries.
      - ivan_gammel 3y ago
        >Most influential media outlets in the West lean left-to-far-left. There can be no serious dispute about it. As someone who actually designed a database with media affiliations in the past, I can seriously dispute this statement. AFAIK right-leaning Western media have enough influence to boost conservative agenda nearly everywhere. Remember, just recently Trump was a president of the USA, not least thanks to Fox Corp. In Germany we have Axel Springer, in UK there's Daily Mail etc. When you make such confident claims, it makes sense to bring some data on the table.
        ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
        > Fox ... Axel Springer ... Daily Mail Let me clarify. When I speak of influence, I am not speaking about the influence tabloids have on people and their voting patterns. Instead, I am referring to "newspaper of record" type influence; news sources that will be used by academics and historians of the future to write the history of this era. To expand on this a bit, the problem with right-wing media is that it is not taken seriously and a lot of it has to do with a lack of serious reporting. I find it very funny when right-wing media of one country refers to left-wing media of another country in their articles and programs because they are either unaware of local right-wing sources or simply do not trust them.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  I wouldn't call it an "issue," but I haven't heard of this sort of creative skirting of the laws in other countries. Maybe it exists?
  - elAhmo 3y ago
    Bosnia and Herzegovina has it as well. It is called "election silence" and functions in the same way parent comment describes.
    - Detrytus 3y ago
      I think the question was "do you have similar ways of circumventing 'election silence'" :) ?
  - jordij1 3y ago
    In Spain it's called "jornada de reflexión" (deliberation day), and there also are Twitter accounts sneakily announcing surveys and provisional results.
  - jowea 3y ago
    It seems an inevitable collision of the election silence laws which were intended for broadcast media and party campaigns being applied to Internet social media.
- ivan_gammel 3y ago
  I think the post does not have any issue with the law itself but with the law enforcement of it in Poland.
- jrmg 3y ago
  FWIW, as a Briton-turned-American, it’s always struck me as very bizarre how they start announcing results on the east coast here, while people on the west coast (not to mention Hawaii and Alaska!) are still voting. Surely it affects results? The practice of the media predicting results based on exit polls and then everyone just treating them as if they're authoritative is equally bizarre.
  - NeoTar 3y ago
    The argument I've heard from some US-Americans supporting the practice is that it's not the same election - i.e. you aren't electing Joe Biden, you are electing members of the electoral college for state XXX.
    - iainmerrick 3y ago
      That’s a really flimsy defence.
    - pxeger1 3y ago
      You’re not electing members of the electoral college though right? You’re electing who you want the electoral college members to vote for.
  - lokar 3y ago
    Most media waits to make calls until polls close on the west coast. But the incremental results: we have distributed elections. For the people reporting results the election is over.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    That’s just a variation of the effects of mass market elections. If you only vote for president? There’s no reason to go to the polls in the majority of states. The problems even worse in Australia where voting is mandatory with a fine but if you’re in Western Australia you could be “forced” to vote in an already concluded election.
    - AussieWog93 3y ago
- axioms_End 3y ago
  I think it's mostly "Look at this weird Polish thing". It's funny, it's local and it pops out during last few election, so probably someone decided to share this cultural phenomena, because of the timing.
- nanna 3y ago
  Did you read to the end of the post?
neonate 3y ago
From 2020: https://www.ft.com/content/33dfc288-b362-4521-ae58-d731f6c6d7bb https://www.ft.com/content/33dfc288-b362-4521-ae58-d731f6c6d... https://archive.ph/0u5Rw https://archive.ph/0u5Rw
inezk 3y ago
I'm Polish (well, not spending much time in Poland lately), but just FYI this practice (not the election silence - that is true) is not something me or family ever heard about. Maybe it exists, but it's not popular.
- krzys 3y ago
  Oh, it's everywhere. Even some of the most prominent influencer accounts were reposting bazaar today.
- mpawelski 3y ago
  Never heard of it either, looks like some niche practice on some social medias (like Twitter that really is not that popular in Poland)
andyjohnson0 3y ago
Similar laws exist here in the UK. The results of exit polls in particular can't be announced until after voting has finished, and political news coverage on TV and radio is very limited during the voting period. Personally I thinks it's a good idea - voting ahould be calm and considered.
- anon4242 3y ago
  > voting ahould be calm and considered. Unlike discussions in your house of commons...
orost 3y ago
The bazarek is fun but in reality even less relevant that this post makes it out to be. Since people with real information cannot prove it and it takes zero effort to post fakes the bazarekposts are not any more meaningful than random guesses. Arguing about them is just a pastime for people waiting for polls to close.
dukeofdoom 3y ago
Elections should reflect the will of the people. But it's kind of gamed, because lots of people don't vote. And then it becomes about who has the money, and ground work to get out their voters to vote. Say you were willing to cheat to have your candidate win the vote. Not uncommon historically through out the world. One way of doing it is to wait for election results, then make up the margin with fake ballots or fraud. This is why the opportunity to cheat is greater if elections take a week to tabulate, as opposed to same day results. Not knowing the results, and not being able to game the system, even for one day, in theory should more accurately reflect the will of the general population, even the ones that don't vote.
- viraptor 3y ago
  > because lots of people don't vote Apart from countries with mandatory elections, like Australia which reaches ~90% turnout.
- Krasnol 3y ago
  > Elections should reflect the will of the people. But it's kind of gamed, because lots of people don't vote. How does "not voting" not reflect the will of the people? They're not forced to not vote. It's their will to not vote.
  - dukeofdoom 3y ago
    Lots of apathy and people that gave up on politics and dont vote. Yet they don't support the current government. For example they sit out because only able to chose between two terrible or undesirable candidates. Or maybe they feel the political system is rigged, or voting is fake. There's going to be discrepancy between who wins the voting game, and who the people support. Sampling Errors, where the method of voting favors only certain demographics would produce such results
wslh 3y ago
In other countries such as Argentina and Brazil also exists "veda electoral", is this something uncommon? [1]. It has its fundamentals. In Europe you can see this thread [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_silence [2] https://reddit.com/r/AskEurope/s/17Uoq4jwIa https://reddit.com/r/AskEurope/s/17Uoq4jwIa
einpoklum 3y ago
Title could be: Polish government fails to enforce moratorium regarding day-before-election poll result publications, on thinly-veiled violations on twitter.
croisillon 3y ago
the same exists in france, people on social media post coded messages with the hashtag #radiolondres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Londres#Coded_messages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Londres#Coded_messages
dools 3y ago
I'd go even further and ban ALL political advertising. Politicians should have a page on the electoral commission's website, like a university professor's page on the university website. People can type in their postcode on the website, see who's on the ballot and look at their policies, then vote on the date. No campaigning. No advertising. No flyers. No social media. Nothing. Randomise the position on the ballot. If people go to the polls on the day with no idea who to vote for, it will be a better outcome than people having been manipulated with big money through aggressive media campaigns to vote one way or the other.
- HenryBemis 3y ago
  And I find this idea to be great. Now, why would someone that wants to be re-elected go and shoot themselves on the foot? Keep in mind that majority of politicians do this for a living and some don't even hesitate to jump ship/parties as long as they keep their chairs in committees, etc.
  - nonrandomstring 3y ago
    At some point you need a new broom. It seems that's been the function of revolutions and coups for centuries, although occasionally a natural disaster provides the opportunity. However, there is another concept from ancient wisdom, designed to break the inevitable cyclic stick-slip "sawtooth wave" of periodic violent reset. It is the "Jubilee" [0] In modern terms we'd have something like; every generation all political offices become null and void. Nobody who has been in any office for more than a year can ever re-enter politics. It would also be helpful at that point to break up too-large corporations and cancel debts. It's like controlled burning. Much of the misery and stagnation we face today is down to a lack of planned destruction. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_
- ivan_gammel 3y ago
  Alternative suggestion: allow ads, but all spending goes to a shared pool which is split equally between all candidates. If candidate A collected $1M and candidate B collected $500k, they both get $750k to buy ads and they can place them only in evenly and randomly distributed fashion. The ad can only say "Vote for XXX, find more at (www)/(phone)", so the ads serve only the purpose of discoverability of the candidate program.
cube2222 3y ago
It doesn’t seem like an actual example of this is linked anywhere in the article, so here you go[0]. Generally the „products” share a prefix with one of the parties. For example, KO (koalicja obywatelska) - kolendra (cilantro). [0]: https://twitter.com/dominikdrzazga/status/1713603905559359498 https://twitter.com/dominikdrzazga/status/171360390555935949...
xinayder 3y ago
Brazil has a similar law and to be honest, it's much better (that you don't get campaign ads shoved onto you a few days before election). We just don't have the part that forbids sharing election results, as its coverage is done by media outlets country-wide, even before all the ballots have closed.

43 points by miki123211 3y ago

"Poland has a law called “election silence”. It makes it illegal for anyone currently residing within Poland to do any kind of political campaigning on Election Day or the day before. This includes making speeches, putting up posters, airing political commercials, even public posts on social media, though not private conversations or messages in non-public groups. If there's also a referendum that is only valid when a big enough quorum of voters is present, you're not even allowed to encourage people to vote, as that can impact the referendum results. This law supposedly exists to give voters a chance to make their decisions in peace, without constantly being bombarded with propaganda from all sides. Many people (often from opposing political factions) claim that the law is outdated and should be repealed, but it doesn't seem to favor one particular side over any other, so nothing has been done about it so far." Many countries (such as, say, France) have similar laws. Sounds okay to me. So what's the issue here?

ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
> Many countries (such as, say, France) have similar laws. The Indian version is called the Model Code of Conduct and it is enforced by the Election Commission of India.[1] The ECI even takes control of the bureaucratic and law and order machinery in the period leading up to the elections. > So what's the issue here? Typical left wing complaints about anything and everything in countries where they don't see a chance of returning to power by electoral means. If the people are not voting for them, it is obviously because the ruling party and their supporters are fascists. There can be no other reason. These narratives are built and spread using their control of media. Their friends in the Global Left help amplify the message. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Code_of_Conduct https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Code_of_Conduct
- andrepd 3y ago
  Saying that media outlets are in the hands of "the global Left" borders on the delirious. Especially when one of the chief complaints about the democratic backsliding in Poland and Hungary is precisely the encroachment on freedom of press (together with the erosion of the separation of powers).
  - ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - eigenket 3y ago
      Speaking as someone who lives in Poland. You don't have a damn clue what you're talking about when it comes to Polish politics.
      - ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
        > You don't have a damn clue what you're talking about when it comes to Polish politics. Only what I read in the Western press. But given what I know about their reporting about India, it is hard to give them the benefit of the doubt when they attack right-wing governments running other countries.
    - ivan_gammel 3y ago
      >Most influential media outlets in the West lean left-to-far-left. There can be no serious dispute about it. As someone who actually designed a database with media affiliations in the past, I can seriously dispute this statement. AFAIK right-leaning Western media have enough influence to boost conservative agenda nearly everywhere. Remember, just recently Trump was a president of the USA, not least thanks to Fox Corp. In Germany we have Axel Springer, in UK there's Daily Mail etc. When you make such confident claims, it makes sense to bring some data on the table.
      - ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
        > Fox ... Axel Springer ... Daily Mail Let me clarify. When I speak of influence, I am not speaking about the influence tabloids have on people and their voting patterns. Instead, I am referring to "newspaper of record" type influence; news sources that will be used by academics and historians of the future to write the history of this era. To expand on this a bit, the problem with right-wing media is that it is not taken seriously and a lot of it has to do with a lack of serious reporting. I find it very funny when right-wing media of one country refers to left-wing media of another country in their articles and programs because they are either unaware of local right-wing sources or simply do not trust them.
AlbertCory 3y ago
I wouldn't call it an "issue," but I haven't heard of this sort of creative skirting of the laws in other countries. Maybe it exists?
- elAhmo 3y ago
  Bosnia and Herzegovina has it as well. It is called "election silence" and functions in the same way parent comment describes.
  - Detrytus 3y ago
    I think the question was "do you have similar ways of circumventing 'election silence'" :) ?
- jordij1 3y ago
  In Spain it's called "jornada de reflexión" (deliberation day), and there also are Twitter accounts sneakily announcing surveys and provisional results.
- jowea 3y ago
  It seems an inevitable collision of the election silence laws which were intended for broadcast media and party campaigns being applied to Internet social media.
ivan_gammel 3y ago
I think the post does not have any issue with the law itself but with the law enforcement of it in Poland.
jrmg 3y ago
FWIW, as a Briton-turned-American, it’s always struck me as very bizarre how they start announcing results on the east coast here, while people on the west coast (not to mention Hawaii and Alaska!) are still voting. Surely it affects results? The practice of the media predicting results based on exit polls and then everyone just treating them as if they're authoritative is equally bizarre.
- NeoTar 3y ago
  The argument I've heard from some US-Americans supporting the practice is that it's not the same election - i.e. you aren't electing Joe Biden, you are electing members of the electoral college for state XXX.
  - iainmerrick 3y ago
    That’s a really flimsy defence.
  - pxeger1 3y ago
    You’re not electing members of the electoral college though right? You’re electing who you want the electoral college members to vote for.
- lokar 3y ago
  Most media waits to make calls until polls close on the west coast. But the incremental results: we have distributed elections. For the people reporting results the election is over.
- bombcar 3y ago
  That’s just a variation of the effects of mass market elections. If you only vote for president? There’s no reason to go to the polls in the majority of states. The problems even worse in Australia where voting is mandatory with a fine but if you’re in Western Australia you could be “forced” to vote in an already concluded election.
  - AussieWog93 3y ago
axioms_End 3y ago
I think it's mostly "Look at this weird Polish thing". It's funny, it's local and it pops out during last few election, so probably someone decided to share this cultural phenomena, because of the timing.
nanna 3y ago
Did you read to the end of the post?

neonate 3y ago

From 2020: https://www.ft.com/content/33dfc288-b362-4521-ae58-d731f6c6d7bb https://www.ft.com/content/33dfc288-b362-4521-ae58-d731f6c6d... https://archive.ph/0u5Rw https://archive.ph/0u5Rw

inezk 3y ago

I'm Polish (well, not spending much time in Poland lately), but just FYI this practice (not the election silence - that is true) is not something me or family ever heard about. Maybe it exists, but it's not popular.

krzys 3y ago
Oh, it's everywhere. Even some of the most prominent influencer accounts were reposting bazaar today.
mpawelski 3y ago
Never heard of it either, looks like some niche practice on some social medias (like Twitter that really is not that popular in Poland)

andyjohnson0 3y ago

Similar laws exist here in the UK. The results of exit polls in particular can't be announced until after voting has finished, and political news coverage on TV and radio is very limited during the voting period. Personally I thinks it's a good idea - voting ahould be calm and considered.

anon4242 3y ago
> voting ahould be calm and considered. Unlike discussions in your house of commons...

orost 3y ago

The bazarek is fun but in reality even less relevant that this post makes it out to be. Since people with real information cannot prove it and it takes zero effort to post fakes the bazarekposts are not any more meaningful than random guesses. Arguing about them is just a pastime for people waiting for polls to close.

dukeofdoom 3y ago

Elections should reflect the will of the people. But it's kind of gamed, because lots of people don't vote. And then it becomes about who has the money, and ground work to get out their voters to vote. Say you were willing to cheat to have your candidate win the vote. Not uncommon historically through out the world. One way of doing it is to wait for election results, then make up the margin with fake ballots or fraud. This is why the opportunity to cheat is greater if elections take a week to tabulate, as opposed to same day results. Not knowing the results, and not being able to game the system, even for one day, in theory should more accurately reflect the will of the general population, even the ones that don't vote.

viraptor 3y ago
> because lots of people don't vote Apart from countries with mandatory elections, like Australia which reaches ~90% turnout.
Krasnol 3y ago
> Elections should reflect the will of the people. But it's kind of gamed, because lots of people don't vote. How does "not voting" not reflect the will of the people? They're not forced to not vote. It's their will to not vote.
- dukeofdoom 3y ago
  Lots of apathy and people that gave up on politics and dont vote. Yet they don't support the current government. For example they sit out because only able to chose between two terrible or undesirable candidates. Or maybe they feel the political system is rigged, or voting is fake. There's going to be discrepancy between who wins the voting game, and who the people support. Sampling Errors, where the method of voting favors only certain demographics would produce such results

wslh 3y ago

In other countries such as Argentina and Brazil also exists "veda electoral", is this something uncommon? [1]. It has its fundamentals. In Europe you can see this thread [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_silence [2] https://reddit.com/r/AskEurope/s/17Uoq4jwIa https://reddit.com/r/AskEurope/s/17Uoq4jwIa

einpoklum 3y ago

Title could be: Polish government fails to enforce moratorium regarding day-before-election poll result publications, on thinly-veiled violations on twitter.

croisillon 3y ago

the same exists in france, people on social media post coded messages with the hashtag #radiolondres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Londres#Coded_messages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Londres#Coded_messages

dools 3y ago

I'd go even further and ban ALL political advertising. Politicians should have a page on the electoral commission's website, like a university professor's page on the university website. People can type in their postcode on the website, see who's on the ballot and look at their policies, then vote on the date. No campaigning. No advertising. No flyers. No social media. Nothing. Randomise the position on the ballot. If people go to the polls on the day with no idea who to vote for, it will be a better outcome than people having been manipulated with big money through aggressive media campaigns to vote one way or the other.

HenryBemis 3y ago
And I find this idea to be great. Now, why would someone that wants to be re-elected go and shoot themselves on the foot? Keep in mind that majority of politicians do this for a living and some don't even hesitate to jump ship/parties as long as they keep their chairs in committees, etc.
- nonrandomstring 3y ago
  At some point you need a new broom. It seems that's been the function of revolutions and coups for centuries, although occasionally a natural disaster provides the opportunity. However, there is another concept from ancient wisdom, designed to break the inevitable cyclic stick-slip "sawtooth wave" of periodic violent reset. It is the "Jubilee" [0] In modern terms we'd have something like; every generation all political offices become null and void. Nobody who has been in any office for more than a year can ever re-enter politics. It would also be helpful at that point to break up too-large corporations and cancel debts. It's like controlled burning. Much of the misery and stagnation we face today is down to a lack of planned destruction. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_
ivan_gammel 3y ago
Alternative suggestion: allow ads, but all spending goes to a shared pool which is split equally between all candidates. If candidate A collected $1M and candidate B collected $500k, they both get $750k to buy ads and they can place them only in evenly and randomly distributed fashion. The ad can only say "Vote for XXX, find more at (www)/(phone)", so the ads serve only the purpose of discoverability of the candidate program.

cube2222 3y ago

It doesn’t seem like an actual example of this is linked anywhere in the article, so here you go[0]. Generally the „products” share a prefix with one of the parties. For example, KO (koalicja obywatelska) - kolendra (cilantro). [0]: https://twitter.com/dominikdrzazga/status/1713603905559359498 https://twitter.com/dominikdrzazga/status/171360390555935949...

xinayder 3y ago

Brazil has a similar law and to be honest, it's much better (that you don't get campaign ads shoved onto you a few days before election). We just don't have the part that forbids sharing election results, as its coverage is done by media outlets country-wide, even before all the ballots have closed.