3 ms·

Sure. But isn't what both sides should be aiming for a no-bullshit dialog where company explain what they need help doing, applicant explains that they can, how

by e12e 3y ago

Sure. But isn't what both sides should be aiming for a no-bullshit dialog where company explain what they need help doing, applicant explains that they can, how they can help get that done? At some point the candidate needs to invest some time on communication with the specific employer - why waste everyone's time synchronously in first first interview, when it's better for both to waste that time asynchronously?

janalsncm 3y ago
Ok, in that case you don’t need a lengthy cover letter. The only thing it needs to say is “At my current company I did X. You need X to be done. Hire me and I will do it.” However very few job descriptions give the kind of info which would enable that.
- e12e 3y ago
  Yes, IMNHO a short (but accurately targeted) cover letter is what serves both parties best.
lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
You've missed the point completely. What you're talking about only applies to programmers who apply for the job you have listed. The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter. Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter when their other options don't have that requirement? They won't apply at all. So, who applies to your open position? Programmers who don't have any other options and are desperate for a job. They probably won't pass your interview. You now have a sales funnel that is filtering out the candidates you want and only giving you the ones you don't want. Then you get to be yet another company that complains about how hard it is to find competent programmers. The exception to all of the above is if you're one of the companies everybody wants to work at. Then you can require whatever you want and people will still apply.
- e12e 3y ago
  > Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs? Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either?
  - catlover76 3y ago
    > I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs? If it's just an open-ended "cover letter"? Then yes. > Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either? They have time for substantive stuff, not nonsense. It sounds like you want to filter only for candidates who may or may not be particularly competent, but who are somewhat obsequious, at least during the hiring process. Maybe that works for your business.
    - e12e 3y ago
      I think we're at least partially talking past each other (quite probably we also disagree). Let's revisit: > The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter. Ok. That sounds like they expect to be recuited - not needing to apply for a job? Is there a small group of candidates that will read a job ad, be qualified, want the job enough to apply - but only willing to customize the email address they send their resume to? Or are we talking about completely separate candidate pools here? Ones that read and respond to ads, and those that expect to be recruited? > If it's just an open-ended "cover letter"? Then yes. > They have time for substantive stuff, not nonsense But it's not nonsense? It's a job application? Or does "cover letter" strongly imply "fawning, vapid, nonsense" to you? What is the alternative? Having the first interview as first contact certainly seems like a waste of time? (Not to mention writing skills being essential for remote work - which I hope is an option for most software positions these days)
      - catlover76 3y ago
        > Is there a small group of candidates that will read a job ad, be qualified, want the job enough to apply - but only willing to customize the email address they send their resume to? I think basically yes. You raise a good point, though, about people who are really good just always getting recruited. Based on my small sample size, such people do still apply to jobs at startups they find interesting. So their pipeline is thus a mix of cold apps and recruiter activity and referrals. > But it's not nonsense? It's a job application? No, it's nonsense. A "cover letter" is a terrible prompt to elicit any meaningful information about a candidate, and implies negative things about the company asking for one. Among them: that the company is perfectly willing to have the candidate waste their own time writing one, so this symmetry of investment and time-saving rationale doesn't seem too convincing, IMO. I think if you want to assess writing skills, you should ask more focused questions, such as "What is the biggest thing you have built in x language", "What is your experience with y" You will still filter out good candidates who do not want or do not have time to answer any such questions, but I think those questions are far more fair and probative of the kinds of qualitative skills you are looking for than "write me a thing to tell me how much you want this job"

by e12e 3y ago

janalsncm 3y ago

Ok, in that case you don’t need a lengthy cover letter. The only thing it needs to say is “At my current company I did X. You need X to be done. Hire me and I will do it.” However very few job descriptions give the kind of info which would enable that.

e12e 3y ago
Yes, IMNHO a short (but accurately targeted) cover letter is what serves both parties best.

lylejantzi3rd 3y ago

You've missed the point completely. What you're talking about only applies to programmers who apply for the job you have listed. The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter. Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter when their other options don't have that requirement? They won't apply at all. So, who applies to your open position? Programmers who don't have any other options and are desperate for a job. They probably won't pass your interview. You now have a sales funnel that is filtering out the candidates you want and only giving you the ones you don't want. Then you get to be yet another company that complains about how hard it is to find competent programmers. The exception to all of the above is if you're one of the companies everybody wants to work at. Then you can require whatever you want and people will still apply.

e12e 3y ago
> Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs? Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either?
- catlover76 3y ago
  > I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs? If it's just an open-ended "cover letter"? Then yes. > Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either? They have time for substantive stuff, not nonsense. It sounds like you want to filter only for candidates who may or may not be particularly competent, but who are somewhat obsequious, at least during the hiring process. Maybe that works for your business.
  - e12e 3y ago
    I think we're at least partially talking past each other (quite probably we also disagree). Let's revisit: > The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter. Ok. That sounds like they expect to be recuited - not needing to apply for a job? Is there a small group of candidates that will read a job ad, be qualified, want the job enough to apply - but only willing to customize the email address they send their resume to? Or are we talking about completely separate candidate pools here? Ones that read and respond to ads, and those that expect to be recruited? > If it's just an open-ended "cover letter"? Then yes. > They have time for substantive stuff, not nonsense But it's not nonsense? It's a job application? Or does "cover letter" strongly imply "fawning, vapid, nonsense" to you? What is the alternative? Having the first interview as first contact certainly seems like a waste of time? (Not to mention writing skills being essential for remote work - which I hope is an option for most software positions these days)
    - catlover76 3y ago
      > Is there a small group of candidates that will read a job ad, be qualified, want the job enough to apply - but only willing to customize the email address they send their resume to? I think basically yes. You raise a good point, though, about people who are really good just always getting recruited. Based on my small sample size, such people do still apply to jobs at startups they find interesting. So their pipeline is thus a mix of cold apps and recruiter activity and referrals. > But it's not nonsense? It's a job application? No, it's nonsense. A "cover letter" is a terrible prompt to elicit any meaningful information about a candidate, and implies negative things about the company asking for one. Among them: that the company is perfectly willing to have the candidate waste their own time writing one, so this symmetry of investment and time-saving rationale doesn't seem too convincing, IMO. I think if you want to assess writing skills, you should ask more focused questions, such as "What is the biggest thing you have built in x language", "What is your experience with y" You will still filter out good candidates who do not want or do not have time to answer any such questions, but I think those questions are far more fair and probative of the kinds of qualitative skills you are looking for than "write me a thing to tell me how much you want this job"