4 ms·

In many jobs, if you can't tailor your CV to the job, and can't write half a page rationale - you probably can't collect, evaluate and summarize business and te

by e12e 3y ago

In many jobs, if you can't tailor your CV to the job, and can't write half a page rationale - you probably can't collect, evaluate and summarize business and technical requirements - ie: you can't do the tricky part of software engineering. Sure, being fluent at the level of fizz-buzz in a relevant programming language is useful too - but honestly, that bar is lower. I realize that people that can't code their way out of a wet paper bag (mysteriously) apply for programming jobs, and there's a low-pass filter needed for that as well - but a coding challenge isn't a substitute to check for (written) communication skills and basic reasoning.

lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
> if you can't tailor your CV to the job, and can't write half a page rationale There's "can't" and there's "won't." Programmers in demand won't spend the time, which leaves you with programmers who are desperate enough for work to jump through your hoops (unless you're FAANG or a unicorn). You're effectively filtering your candidate pool down to people you don't want to hire. Round and round we go.
- e12e 3y ago
  Sure. But isn't what both sides should be aiming for a no-bullshit dialog where company explain what they need help doing, applicant explains that they can, how they can help get that done? At some point the candidate needs to invest some time on communication with the specific employer - why waste everyone's time synchronously in first first interview, when it's better for both to waste that time asynchronously?
  - janalsncm 3y ago
    Ok, in that case you don’t need a lengthy cover letter. The only thing it needs to say is “At my current company I did X. You need X to be done. Hire me and I will do it.” However very few job descriptions give the kind of info which would enable that.
    - e12e 3y ago
      Yes, IMNHO a short (but accurately targeted) cover letter is what serves both parties best.
  - lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
    You've missed the point completely. What you're talking about only applies to programmers who apply for the job you have listed. The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter. Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter when their other options don't have that requirement? They won't apply at all. So, who applies to your open position? Programmers who don't have any other options and are desperate for a job. They probably won't pass your interview. You now have a sales funnel that is filtering out the candidates you want and only giving you the ones you don't want. Then you get to be yet another company that complains about how hard it is to find competent programmers. The exception to all of the above is if you're one of the companies everybody wants to work at. Then you can require whatever you want and people will still apply.
    - e12e 3y ago
      > Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs? Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either?
      - catlover76 3y ago
        > I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs? If it's just an open-ended "cover letter"? Then yes. > Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either? They have time for substantive stuff, not nonsense. It sounds like you want to filter only for candidates who may or may not be particularly competent, but who are somewhat obsequious, at least during the hiring process. Maybe that works for your business.
        e12e 3y ago
        I think we're at least partially talking past each other (quite probably we also disagree). Let's revisit: > The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter. Ok. That sounds like they expect to be recuited - not needing to apply for a job? Is there a small group of candidates that will read a job ad, be qualified, want the job enough to apply - but only willing to customize the email address they send their resume to? Or are we talking about completely separate candidate pools here? Ones that read and respond to ads, and those that expect to be recruited? > If it's just an open-ended "cover letter"? Then yes. > They have time for substantive stuff, not nonsense But it's not nonsense? It's a job application? Or does "cover letter" strongly imply "fawning, vapid, nonsense" to you? What is the alternative? Having the first interview as first contact certainly seems like a waste of time? (Not to mention writing skills being essential for remote work - which I hope is an option for most software positions these days)
- eadmund 3y ago
  The cover letter is a proxy for soft skills. I am pretty sure that I don’t want to hire a candidate who believes that soft skills are a waste of time. He might be brilliant, but he sounds terrible to supervise, work for or be supervised by.
  - lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
    > The cover letter is a proxy for soft skills. Not anymore. Not with ChatGPT. In any case, you have completely missed my point, right along with e12e.
    - eadmund 3y ago
      > > The cover letter is a proxy for soft skills. > Not anymore. Not with ChatGPT. I don’t think so. I don’t care if a writer uses spell check, grammar check or ChatGPT: good cover letter is a good cover letter, regardless of what tools the writer used to help. > In any case, you have completely missed my point, right along with e12e. What was it, then? That the best candidates consider cover letters nonsense? I disagree: I am asserting that a candidate who considers cover letters nonsense is ipso facto not among the best. Maybe this is related to a misunderstanding about cover letters? They’re not about ‘I love your company!’ or ‘please please hire me!’; they are about ‘here’s why I believe that my skills, education and prior experience suit me for this opportunity.’ The resumé is what; the cover letter is why. The resumé is facts; the cover letter is judgement.
catlover76 3y ago
> In many jobs, if you can't tailor your CV to the job, and can't write half a page rationale - you probably can't collect, evaluate and summarize business and technical requirements - ie: you can't do the tricky part of software engineering. It's not about can or cannot, it is about need and need not; you are by and large getting applications only from people who really need to apply to jobs even when there are these kinds of hurdles.

by e12e 3y ago

lylejantzi3rd 3y ago

> if you can't tailor your CV to the job, and can't write half a page rationale There's "can't" and there's "won't." Programmers in demand won't spend the time, which leaves you with programmers who are desperate enough for work to jump through your hoops (unless you're FAANG or a unicorn). You're effectively filtering your candidate pool down to people you don't want to hire. Round and round we go.

e12e 3y ago
Sure. But isn't what both sides should be aiming for a no-bullshit dialog where company explain what they need help doing, applicant explains that they can, how they can help get that done? At some point the candidate needs to invest some time on communication with the specific employer - why waste everyone's time synchronously in first first interview, when it's better for both to waste that time asynchronously?
- janalsncm 3y ago
  Ok, in that case you don’t need a lengthy cover letter. The only thing it needs to say is “At my current company I did X. You need X to be done. Hire me and I will do it.” However very few job descriptions give the kind of info which would enable that.
  - e12e 3y ago
    Yes, IMNHO a short (but accurately targeted) cover letter is what serves both parties best.
- lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
  You've missed the point completely. What you're talking about only applies to programmers who apply for the job you have listed. The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter. Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter when their other options don't have that requirement? They won't apply at all. So, who applies to your open position? Programmers who don't have any other options and are desperate for a job. They probably won't pass your interview. You now have a sales funnel that is filtering out the candidates you want and only giving you the ones you don't want. Then you get to be yet another company that complains about how hard it is to find competent programmers. The exception to all of the above is if you're one of the companies everybody wants to work at. Then you can require whatever you want and people will still apply.
  - e12e 3y ago
    > Why should they spend the time to write you a detailed cover letter I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs? Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either?
    - catlover76 3y ago
      > I'm not sure if I understand - there are candidates that want the position, but won't write a couple of (relevant) paragraphs? If it's just an open-ended "cover letter"? Then yes. > Surely then they don't have time to interview, negotiate compensation either? They have time for substantive stuff, not nonsense. It sounds like you want to filter only for candidates who may or may not be particularly competent, but who are somewhat obsequious, at least during the hiring process. Maybe that works for your business.
      - e12e 3y ago
        I think we're at least partially talking past each other (quite probably we also disagree). Let's revisit: > The programmers a company wants to hire have options that don't require a cover letter. Ok. That sounds like they expect to be recuited - not needing to apply for a job? Is there a small group of candidates that will read a job ad, be qualified, want the job enough to apply - but only willing to customize the email address they send their resume to? Or are we talking about completely separate candidate pools here? Ones that read and respond to ads, and those that expect to be recruited? > If it's just an open-ended "cover letter"? Then yes. > They have time for substantive stuff, not nonsense But it's not nonsense? It's a job application? Or does "cover letter" strongly imply "fawning, vapid, nonsense" to you? What is the alternative? Having the first interview as first contact certainly seems like a waste of time? (Not to mention writing skills being essential for remote work - which I hope is an option for most software positions these days)
eadmund 3y ago
The cover letter is a proxy for soft skills. I am pretty sure that I don’t want to hire a candidate who believes that soft skills are a waste of time. He might be brilliant, but he sounds terrible to supervise, work for or be supervised by.
- lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
  > The cover letter is a proxy for soft skills. Not anymore. Not with ChatGPT. In any case, you have completely missed my point, right along with e12e.
  - eadmund 3y ago
    > > The cover letter is a proxy for soft skills. > Not anymore. Not with ChatGPT. I don’t think so. I don’t care if a writer uses spell check, grammar check or ChatGPT: good cover letter is a good cover letter, regardless of what tools the writer used to help. > In any case, you have completely missed my point, right along with e12e. What was it, then? That the best candidates consider cover letters nonsense? I disagree: I am asserting that a candidate who considers cover letters nonsense is ipso facto not among the best. Maybe this is related to a misunderstanding about cover letters? They’re not about ‘I love your company!’ or ‘please please hire me!’; they are about ‘here’s why I believe that my skills, education and prior experience suit me for this opportunity.’ The resumé is what; the cover letter is why. The resumé is facts; the cover letter is judgement.

catlover76 3y ago

> In many jobs, if you can't tailor your CV to the job, and can't write half a page rationale - you probably can't collect, evaluate and summarize business and technical requirements - ie: you can't do the tricky part of software engineering. It's not about can or cannot, it is about need and need not; you are by and large getting applications only from people who really need to apply to jobs even when there are these kinds of hurdles.