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Cars are a 'privacy nightmare on wheels'
- irrational 3y agoBoth of my cars are more than 20 years old and don't have any of the internet connected things mentioned in the article. I keep thinking about getting a new car(s), but articles like this really give me pause.
- velhartice 3y agoSame here and been happy with them. Not only the aforementioned issues in addition to the sheer cost of a newer car these days. Deals can be had, but are hard to find.
- mthomasmw 3y agoIt's completely possible to build an EV that isn't connected. The idea that electric power means networked spying is an invented fiction. Due to the privacy-conscious background of one automaker, a vote by the board mandated that all their cars be able to function in a completely disconnected, non-reporting mode: https://www.wsj.com/articles/porsche-rolls-out-board-approved-privacy-strategy-11653039001 https://www.wsj.com/articles/porsche-rolls-out-board-approve... And they all do, even their EV. I voted with my wallet.
- sysadm1n 3y ago> It's completely possible to build an EV that isn't connected sudo ifconfig eth1 down
- speed_spread 3y agoRooting your car might very well void the warranty.
- sircastor 3y agoI worked for an automotive company for a while and I recall a meeting wherein were learned about compliance, fault, maintaining records, etc. One thing I learned is that you do not know how far lawyers will go to reach a verdict or a settlement. And if you're reading this right now, I will tell you do not know how far a lawyer and their clients will go to reach a settlement. And that's lawyers on both sides of any argument. If you ever have an opportunity to attend a training/info seminar put on by legal, I promise you it is way more interesting than it sounds on the face of it.
- hutzlibu 3y ago"And if you're reading this right now, I will tell you do not know how far a lawyer and their clients will go to reach a settlement" It always depends on how much money is at stake. Usually a lot, when it is about setting a precedent.
- driverdan 3y agoIn the US it would not void your warranty.
- squarefoot 3y agoI wouldn't even try to root it; all I'd ask for is to be able to reach the antenna plug and stick in there a dummy load.
- itslennysfault 3y agoNot sure why you are specifically calling out EVs. I think all new cars (gas or electric) have internet connectivity and send all sorts of data home.
- piperswe 3y agoYep, I can't think of any automakers that have different connectivity in their EVs than their ICEs.
- mixmastamyk 3y agoIt was pioneered there. Not been able to buy a modern EV without it. Ostensibly for range anxiety early on, kept for the sweet revenue. The GM EV1 and Tesla roadster? were probably the last without it.
- sandworm101 3y ago>> Ostensibly for range anxiety ... The most range-anxious person I ever saw was a tesla driver at a rest stop. A traffic accident had put us on a 150km detour though a different mountain valley, one without cellphone connectivity. He was at the first rest stop trying to figure out whether to push on or attempt to turn around and go home. He didn't have the range to go back, and couldn't figure out of there were any chargers 115km forwards at the next town. No cellphone coverage had turned him into a seething ball of indecision.
- CraigJPerry 3y agoCars have been running out of gas for 100 years, give or take. To refill an electric car you can usually just pull it with a tow rope for a few miles to recharge. Doesn’t really seem like a seismic shift in paradigm to be honest. Certainly not to justify a different level of range anxiety than a gas car running a bit low.
- cuu508 3y agoHos much usable range do you get after pulling for a few miles?
- GuB-42 3y agoSee the Dacia Spring, not only it is an EV for about $20k, but if you look at the interior, you don't even realize it's electric. It is all knobs and dials, some models are equipped with a screen and GPS for navigation, but you won't get more than that in term of connectivity.
- tremon 3y agoThat sounds great, but I'm a bit sad that it seems to come only in SUV form factor. Do you happen to know if they have anything in less obnoxious sizes?
- lnsru 3y agoIt’s not a SUV. It’s small funny car. With catastrophic crash test result. On the pictures is looks indeed like a normal SUV, but it is not. Crash test: https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/dacia/spring/44197 https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/dacia/spring/44197
- bonzini 3y agoSpring owner here. It's a cool little car. The main disadvantage is that AC recharging is extremely slow (6.6 kW three phase) because they skimped on battery cooling. And opening/closing the doors feels more like a 1990 Fiat Panda. It obviously doesn't go fast on the highway but in the city it's great, the electric motor gives it surprising acceleration for a 33 kW engine. It's 3.70 meters long, definitely not an SUV. It's not only the smallest EV (the Volkswagen e-UP is unobtainable at least in Italy) but one of the smallest cars in general.
- avhon1 3y agoHere's an article with a photograph showing the Dacia Spring next to a person. Definitely more of a Pontiac Vibe than an SUV. https://www.largus.fr/actualite-automobile/dacia-spring-presque-a-bord-de-la-citadine-electrique-a-10-000-e-10257396.html https://www.largus.fr/actualite-automobile/dacia-spring-pres...
- eweise 3y agoLooks like a hatchback to me.
- throw0101b 3y agoUp to a certain point. From 2015, "New cars in Europe could soon automatically call police when you crash": * https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/new-cars-in-europe-could-soon-automatically-call-police-when-you-crash https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/new-cars-in-europe-could-s...
- hutzlibu 3y agoBut this is something very different, from sending all the data from all the sensors (optionally including interior cameras) all the time.
- mdp2021 3y agoAccording to the regulation, the eCall is only activated as the emergency is triggered (as the airbags trigger). According to what you can expect, it is hard to know if that is the way the manufacturers implemented it.
- nradov 3y agoIn general most auto manufacturers are trying to shift their revenue model from periodic auto and parts sales to monthly subscription fees. This isn't linked to EVs. They're trying to force consumers into subscriptions for ICE vehicles as well. This is obviously a negative for consumers, but subscription revenue is seen by Wall Street as more stable and predictable thus it supports higher stock market valuations and better bond credit ratings.
- ElectricalUnion 3y agoA world based on planned obsolescence is aligned with minimum cost optimized components. It is of no interest for a company to just sell you a thing for cheap, not extract some sort of rent from it and for you to not replace it constantly. In theory a revenue model based on subscription fees is also more aligned with the preservation of the environment and providing the end-user long term quality components, as to extract said rent smoothly and for as long as possible. That of course assuming those subscriptions cover actual vehicle maintenance (somewhat like Managed Services Provider do for, say, printers), why not? Transportation-as-a-Service seems a very reasonable X-as-a-Service model .
- taeric 3y agoThat isn't the only real problem with trying to have privacy with your car. And, realistically, this isn't new. It was common a long time ago to know that so and so was at someone's house because you saw their car there. Or you saw their car really anywhere else. And with how traceable cars are, the idea that it has to do the data sending for you is a bit outdated. If it was ever accurate.
- plagiarist 3y ago"Your face is pretty distinct so it's not a significant difference if shoe companies install GPS and telemetry to track your every movement."
- taeric 3y agoThis seems like a non-sequitur? Cars can't track your every movement. But that phone in your pocket is already doing that. Even if it isn't recorded by the phone, the cell towers that your phone is in constant communication with to actually work can do so. Add in the ridiculously lax methodology we took for bluetooth scanning and connection to work, and you leak more information than your car can do well before the car gets internet connected. Don't get me wrong, I'm a bit concerned about internet connected cars, too. But privacy seems a weak angle there. I'm much more concerned with safety than I am privacy. I fully expect that with all of the license scanners that exist today, if the government wanted to track my movements, that ship sailed a long time ago. I'm not convinced that having the ability to connect to my car from remote is at all safe. Especially to the control facilities.
- kenhwang 3y agoCars already have a black box like logging system that tracks literally everything the car does continuously in very fine detail. The exact speed and engine load, brake/throttle/steering input, detected tire slip, elevation changes, body roll/pitch/yaw. With that data alone, it's pretty trivial to construct a very exact route, and it's not difficult to figure out where that route fits on a map. Manufacturers already use this data to deny warranty claims. Vehicles having GPS, compass, cell service, bluetooth, and WiFi just makes that tracking trivial. All that's currently missing is the internet connectivity to upload the data in real time instead of the data being pulled at maintenance. Many manufactures also do have background data upload over cell service, even if they don't expose internet features to the vehicle owner.
- sandworm101 3y agoIt is also Porsche, a company that prides itself on long-term support. Just look at the iconic Porsche tractor commercial. They want their car to work as well tomorrow as it does today. They know that communication standards change. Every "connected" car will, in a decade or two, be a disconnected/bricked car.
- sircastor 3y agoI've got a Nissan LEAF from 2012, and it had a handful of useful features that have disappeared with the loss of the cell network (the original radio was 2G - I didn't upgrade it because they wanted $200, and I think the 3G replacement is also slated to disappear in the near future) While I wish I could remotely warm up the car or set the charging shutoff, it's not a huge loss. Most of the features continue to work perfectly fine.
- bluGill 3y agoIt depends on where you live, but in general 3g disappeared before 2g.
- kenhwang 3y agoI really like how they're rolling out updated headunits for all their cars right now. Just about every Porsche from the 1960s to late-2000s can be updated to support a modern Porsche infotainment interface as well as CarPlay/Android Auto.
- MrFoof 3y agoPorsche will sell you a new dashboard for your classic 911 that appears visually identical to the original, but is entirely modern in its construction. Porsche's classic division is really setting the standards for supporting older cars. They realize over time it'll become an increasingly relevant portion of their business and just increase revenue. You can even send a car out to Germany and they'll fully restore it (at quite a price). The big thing though is they simply produce parts for their older cars. Mercedes-Benz is also pretty up there for supporting their classic cars. Aston Martin also increasingly building out their support for their cars. Ferrari and Lamborghini starting to get more into the game, but for those brands it very much remains going to a big few shows in the EU to round up parts at times. Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Chevrolet also have some levels of support.
- mixmastamyk 3y agoA privacy setting is not enough, as it can easily be switched back on. And we know that happens all the time because of bugs right? wink No good enough, unless the hardware is not installed.
- JJMcJ 3y agoAs another proof there were electric cars in the early era around 1900, which clearly did not and could not have phone-home capability.
- uconnectlol 3y agogasoline powered cars are a privacy nightmare too and a terrible "its all going digital" nightmare. the problem here is obviously oppression by the majority
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- zolbrek 3y agoI would vote with my wallet in this way too if I could afford a Porsche.
- danpalmer 3y agoMy parents have just bought a new car, and every time it starts there's a consent screen, rather like a cookie banner, with the option to accept or reject. What happens if you're driving and tap "reject" is unclear, and what is being agreed to is unclear, not what I would call informed and meaningful consent.
- vultour 3y agoThis is probably what’s going to make me sell my current car. Every time it starts you have to acknowledge that the owner of the vehicle can track it. 50% of the time there’s another popup behind it telling you to install updates. I often don’t even listen to the radio or use the infotainment, just keep it in a “standby” mode where it shows an analog clock, but you can’t even see that until you click through several popups. I stopped bothering to click and just drive with the popups.
- Encrypt-Keeper 3y agoMazdas have a community project you can flash onto a USB drive and insert into your car and it can disable a lot of that nonsense. I used it years ago to load android auto onto my Mazda 3's infotainment system that didn't support it. Also removed all the startup pop ups, and the touch screen limitations.
- bonton89 3y agoMine says something to the effect of "Our terrible touchscreen controls we installed in this car are dangerous to use while driving this car, please agree this is your fault somehow." For whatever reason the dialog disappears on its own without touching "I agree" once you start driving though. I recall deciding to buy this car because the new model year was coming out soon and the touchscreen controls were even worse.
- stcredzero 3y agoevery time it starts there's a consent screen This is exactly what Mr. Garrison’s “It” sorely needed.
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- dijeridoundksj 3y agoThe best thing you can do for privacy in your vehicle is to not connect it to the internet and pull the fuse to the GPS. Good luck with license plate scanners though, there's no telling who they sell that info to (or will, in the future).
- _moof 3y agoIn principle you don't need to disable GPS. A GPS receiver doesn't transmit anything. What you would need to disable would be Bluetooth, cellular (e.g. OnStar), and potentially TPMS.
- lapetitejort 3y ago> TPMS Curious about this. What else does this do besides measure the pressure of your tires? Or could the system transmit some other info?
- edrxty 3y agoIt continuously transmits a unique ID. You've probably seen large panel antennas mounted on highways, these are frequently there to read this ID and use it for volume/transit time stats.
- aifooh7Keew6xoo 3y agoI've pretty much abandoned the idea of ever owning a car newer than 2010 or so. I know what happens when you buy into closed, adversarial technology for convenience. Fool me in virtually every corporate interaction over a period spanning decades, shame on me...
- eks391 3y agoCan't we just disconnect the transmitter physically inside the car? Assume we don't care if we void a warranty. This is my plan for when it is no longer practical to buy old/bricked cars.
- flerchin 3y ago"If you're not paying for something, you're the product." I feel like $25k+ is paying for something. Stop it you jerks.
- pixl97 3y agoYea, really that changed years ago.... 2015+ "You are the product, doesn't matter if you pay for it or not"
- Clamchop 3y agoI'd say much older than that. PCs were being subsidized by adware and bundling starting in the 90s at least, for example.
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoMeh, whatever, you could always remove the adware on PC by installing windows from scratch. You can't remove spyware from your car.
- waynesonfire 3y agoBut all those useless gadgets and sensors cost money. So the actual cost of the product is much higher than what you're billed for; part of the cost is subsidized by raping your privacy. One hope is that the cheap EV cars from China won't have this bloatware.
- whelp_24 3y agoThat is absolutely untrue, the chips are cheap, cheaper than knobs probably. It's just putting greed over welfare.
- waynesonfire 3y agoCheaper in the sense that a knob won't generate MRR.
- throw0101b 3y agoFrom last month: * Privacy Nightmare on Wheels’: Every Car Brand Reviewed by Mozilla: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37443644 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37443644 * Internet-connected cars fail privacy and security tests conducted by Mozilla: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37404413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37404413
- AlexandrB 3y agoThe Nissan terms of service are particularly egregious: > The very worst offender is Nissan. The Japanese car manufacturer admits in their privacy policy to collecting a wide range of information, including sexual activity, health diagnosis data, and genetic data — but doesn’t specify how. What I don't get is at what point are you asked to agree to this stuff. Before you make a deposit? Before the sale is "closed"? What happens if you buy a used car from a private seller, when are you presented with the privacy policy/agreement?
- lasermike026 3y agoI'm giving up my car. My primary mode of transportation is bicycle and secondary is public trans. I'm cycling about 400 miles a month. This is the way.
- crims0n 3y agoIf I was single and living in a city, would likely do the same. The realities of rural America don't allow this though. Not only do you need a vehicle, depending on how rural you are, there is a good chance you need a truck as well.
- BizarreByte 3y agoSome of us like our cars. Don't get me wrong I like walking too, but I'm not prepared to permanently give up a car.
- shadowgovt 3y agoFrom a surveillance standpoint, isn't public trans studded with cameras these days?
- Clubber 3y agoBring lots of deodorant to work. I live in the heat and my colleagues wouldn't talk to me if I did that. (which might be a good thing). Make sure you leave your cell phone at home if you are concerned about tracking though.
- mordechai9000 3y agoDress for the ride, change at work, and allow enough time so you're not trying to break any speed records on the way. No worse than taking public transport and walking a few blocks.
- izzydata 3y agoI would if I could. Living in the midwest with no public transportation and work being a 20 minute drive away makes it impossible. I'd love for them to rip out every road in the country and replace them with trains somehow.
- Clubber 3y agoOnStar has been doing this since the 1990s and can shut down your motor too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnStar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnStar
- uconnectlol 3y agoi don't know why this was downvoted, onstar is one of the original cancers
- readthenotes1 3y agoThey originally offered concierge service and needed to know your location in order to do so. I visited the call center once and they had people calling in to ask where the nearest gas station was, where the cracker barrel was, etc. This was well before Google maps and turn by turn directions... So it was sort of a cancer, but it was more of a symbiotic relationship
- Clubber 3y ago>So it was sort of a cancer, but it was more of a symbiotic relationship That was the paid service. If you didn't pay, you were still tracked and your motor could still be shut down. So if you paid, you got tracking++. If you didn't pay, you just got tracking.
- verisimi 3y agoI for one hate modern cars. No key in mine, music system cannot be turned off (only give the illusion of being off), so many sensors (is there a real problem or is it the sensor again), etc. These features, and others, are features I never wanted. I really do want a simple mechanical car. It is possible to get this as an antique... I'm sure there would be some demand for such a car, but if the customer is king, as we are told, went do we not get any cards like this at all?
- taeric 3y agoI'm not clear on what the article is arguing for/against with regards to just cars. Yes, we need solid legislation to make these things both secure and to attempt to control their use. But, this is not necessarily unique to cars? Specifically, phones can almost certainly record all of the stuff we are talking about here, too. Security cameras around shopping places probably record and keep it on file for a time. Your ISP can probably tell more about you than you'd care to know about. Your credit cards can see your purchase histories. What is it that makes cars particularly worse?
- AlexandrB 3y agoCar software seems to be lacking all of the explicit and implicit permissions systems that phones have. Can't disable location services, can't put the car in "airplane mode", and the on/off state of the electronics is unclear because there's always ample power available from the large car battery. Sure these levers could be a fig leaf that does nothing on phones, but some (e.g. airplane mode) are there for regulatory/safety reasons so you can be fairly confident they do what they claim. The other issue is that a remote exploit of a moving car is potentially much more dangerous than remote exploit of a phone. Worst case with a phone is a massive breach of personal data. Worst case with a car is death.
- taeric 3y agoAirplane mode is an odd one to me. It only means that the cell receiver is turned off now, right? Wifi and bluetooth are more than welcome to stay on. So, what exactly is it claiming? (Indeed, it is not uncommon to not remember to turn on airplane mode, such that I honestly don't know what it does.) But my point was more for "privacy" reasons. I confess many of the cars with cameras on them probably are worth a bit more looking at specifically. I'd be fine with a "not really allowed to record" things from the outside cameras. Dashcams would need a carve out, I suppose? (And really, any sensor reading that can go to a "blackbox" device is probably ok? That said, physical access is probably best required for those.) I fully agree on the concerns of exploits. Remote control of a car is where my main worry of these would be. Exploits of your phone are probably already pretty scary with passkeys and other similar things growing in use.
- nebula8804 3y agoI think Mazda is unique among brands where they are not really pushing high tech stuff but instead focusing on the 'joy of driving' by keeping things limited and traditional. I know they have some sort of 'wheel' to navigate their UX and they block certain features such as touch input while driving (at least until this new model year I think). People complain that they are too old fashioned but maybe thats a good thing. Also if someone has evidence that they do in fact collect data then I am happy to update my comment.
- aidenn0 3y agoI love Mazdas. My next car will be whatever compact electric they release that isn't a compliance car. That being said, I have no clue what their plan is with tracking. They have knobs for everything because someone sufficiently high up in the organization hates touch screens as much as I do. They aren't particularly technology averse.
- nebula8804 3y agoTheir focus on tradition appears to be partially based on their lack of resources. They are a small company and cannot afford to invest in all the latest gizmos. So they try to focus on really getting basics right. (At least thats what I have read). Unfortunately this has also led to slow advancement in their EV efforts. I would love nothing more than an all electric Mazda 3: The first car I owned and will always have fond memories for. Instead I am forced to consider Tesla and play russian roulette with their mediocre build quality and whatever nonsense Elon comes up with (touchscreen gear shifter, stupid steering wheel etc.). I'm in the market for a new car (preferably an EV) so i've been reading up on their EV efforts. It seems like their current plan is to lower their entire fleet average to meet government requirements in the short term while partnering up with Toyota to cross develop an EV powertrain. This resulted in them dropping their pickup truck, improving avg fuel economy across the lineup with better engines and then slowly introducing hybrids and then finally convert everything to EV. That MX-30 EV was super cool and I wish they had put more effort into it but it seems like that model ended up not working. Looking forward to seeing how the new version with the small rotary range extender works!
- willio58 3y agoFunny that both this and Tesla's API release are on the front page the same day
- 1970-01-01 3y agoI think we are at the point where anything you buy that needs software is a privacy nightmare. Cars happen to be the most expensive item, so they're getting the biggest news. But TVs, appliances, exercise equipment, etc. are just as bad as cars. Someday soon I expect new toilets to have touch screens, and we will need an account to activate toilet flush.
- jehb 3y agoI've delayed a number of purchase decisions for my new home because I don't have the time to research which devices won't have a software failure or phone home. At this point, I have to assume anything with a plug might have software-defined components that I don't want.
- bluGill 3y agoWhat does the flush toilet do? There is a lot of medical information that can be obtained from my toilet that I'd love for my doctor to have. (my doctor - nobody else!)
- obblekk 3y agoIt's possible to build an EV or even smart ICE that has a bunch of modern features and doesn't phone home constantly. But I think we've now crossed a threshold where most of society agrees with continuous monitoring of some things for safety reasons. Cars are probably the most technologically advanced, potentially dangerous, and socially disruptive thing most people buy. If cars were invented today the regulations would be far more onerous and intrusive than the regulatory system we got from before computers existed. Safety regulators in the US are already evaluating next-gen regulations to require a car to disable if alcoholic breath is detected, regardless of driver overrides. For better or worse, we're on a one-way ratchet with this stuff.
- velhartice 3y agoI don’t see how this is any different than any other internet connected device that companies are seemingly so eager to get into our possession to mine and monetize data that we produce by using them. The device i’m using to type this up included. To me this seems more like just one piece of a more meta issue that is arguably turning in to a multi-headed monster for the average citizen to contend with going forward. I’ve also seen no evidence of effective, concrete, and widespread clarity, reform, or help coming from anywhere. I hope I’m horribly wrong.
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