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Started at age 7 on a C64. I learned binary before I could multiply because you needed to understand binary to create multi-colored sprites on the C64. I made

by drblast 15y ago

Started at age 7 on a C64. I learned binary before I could multiply because you needed to understand binary to create multi-colored sprites on the C64. I made a game where you drove a car and avoided things, then another where you drove a spaceship and avoided things, then another where you shot arrows at moving targets. That last game was the first one I wrote where the goal was to hit things, a major departure for me. Those were the days. Despite the advances in tech, kids today who want to learn to program have it much harder.

jdc 15y ago
> Despite the advances in tech, kids today who want to learn to program have it much harder. Why is that?
- endlessvoid94 15y ago
  The hypothesis is that the 'stack' is much taller. Back when all you needed was QBasic to "learn to code", "learning to code" meant reproducing other software you used on a daily basis. Software is generally much more polished now, and it requires much more time and work to get it so polished (assuming it's at all complex). I'm not saying I agree with this. But the situation is definitely different from 10 years ago by quite a bit.
  - gaius 15y ago
    I don't think that's true. NOTEPAD.EXE and Firefox is all you need to start with HTML and JavaScript, for example. Microsoft gives away Visual Studio for free download, there are all the open source languages (ActiveState does great distros for Windows) etc etc. It's a cultural shift. Kids these days are consumers, not producers.
    - pilot_pirx 15y ago
      But they still need to find the information that there are such super simple options. Google "programming tutorial beginner" and the first thing is about C++. Ask in a forum and you will start a long discussion about which language to learn first. There is an incredible amount of information and tools that would allow to start very easy (and without having to pay anything for tools or books), but without somebody experienced it's difficult to sort that out.
      - gaius 15y ago
        OK, but if you wanted to program a VIC-20, you were literally POKEing 6502 opcodes as hex numbers into memory addresses - the development tool VICMON cost extra, and even then you still had to know the mnemonics. And people of my generation still did it. And kids today have everything handed to them on a plate, they just aren't interested.
        Retric 15y ago
        Adoption has increased, but the web is also far more interesting than playing another text based adventure game. So, I think the percentage of total people has stayed about the same. It's only the percentage of people with access to a computer who learn to program that's changed. Because, the further back you go the fewer things there where to do with a computer other than learn to program.
        gaius 15y ago
        Right, but a kid who uses the web and wants to make their own web page, has basically zero barriers to overcome. All they need is the browser they already use, and Notepad. Sure hosting it somewhere is a bit more work, but trivial compared to distributing a program you wrote in the 80s, where you had to physically exchange cassettes or floppy disks with your friends in the school playground (!) or persuade a magazine to distribute your program as a listing or on the coverdisk.
        rytis 15y ago
        yet there are a lot of concepts they need to digest before they jump into the html/js world. it already means they need to learn two languages (html and js), interaction between them , etc... I'm not even mentioning things like - open notepad, save the file, make sure you get the extension right, fire up the browser, click open (why not in address bar? oh yeah, you can, but tell a kid the file:///<blah> business and see if they remember it after 3-4 days of not doing it) and see what happens. of course it's just a reload away next time. not as easy as qbasic.exe, then typing in some code in, then hitting 'run' and seeing what happens. speaking from experience here, i have 8 and 10 yo, and tried this with both of them. my friend tried with his 9 yo. they seem to get the idea of assignments, loops etc, but it just doesn't excite them. can't generalise on a test sample of 3, so just my 2p.
    - Jem 15y ago
      Totally agree. You're describing how I started... for a kid wanting to write a web page over 10 years ago you were lucky to have access to lissaexplains.com & w3schools.com. Nowadays you've got stackoverflow, smashing mag network, nettuts etc - not to mention a whole shitload of resources offering free code / designs / icons, ready to roll stuff like wordpress, etc.
      - blairbits 15y ago
        LissaExplains... Now there's a site I haven't heard of in a long time. Does anyone know what she's up to these days?
- danellis 15y ago
  There's something inviting about turning on your computer and being greeted with a BASIC interpreter prompt, the cursor blinking at you expectantly.
marquis 15y ago
I started a 15 year old girl programming yesterday with Processing because she showed an interest in conceptual art for games. I showed her some examples, she downloaded and installed the application on her own as I watched and started entering the tutorial text (not copy/paste either as I might have resorted to). I guided her in what she'll need to get a grip on with her math classes etc, and I heard from her teacher she was still enthralled at the end of the day. I'm not sure how much easier that can get, I was impressed.
- eru 15y ago
  Just for curiosity: Did you also have a look at PyGame? If yes, how does it compare to Processing?
  - sitkack 15y ago
    Processing is way way cleaner than PyGame. It is nice that people are creating interesting things in PyGame but I think more good would come about if it didn't exist so something better could flourish. And I say this as a python programmer since 1998.
officialchicken 15y ago
Why do people continually assume that kids don't have the intellectual capacity to solve problems? The hurdles are only as high as YOU think they are. Kid wants to make a game, kid programs a game. What's so hard about that? The kid doesn't care about the "barrier to entry" any more than issues like platform, methodology, budget, competition, etc. None of those business decisions are part of their need to make the game. I'd say the opposite - Kids can cut the crap and stay focused better than most PM's.
- marshray 15y ago
  I sure thought I was smarter than all the adults when I was 15. I still have no idea if I was right or not.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]

by drblast 15y ago

jdc 15y ago

> Despite the advances in tech, kids today who want to learn to program have it much harder. Why is that?

endlessvoid94 15y ago
The hypothesis is that the 'stack' is much taller. Back when all you needed was QBasic to "learn to code", "learning to code" meant reproducing other software you used on a daily basis. Software is generally much more polished now, and it requires much more time and work to get it so polished (assuming it's at all complex). I'm not saying I agree with this. But the situation is definitely different from 10 years ago by quite a bit.
- gaius 15y ago
  I don't think that's true. NOTEPAD.EXE and Firefox is all you need to start with HTML and JavaScript, for example. Microsoft gives away Visual Studio for free download, there are all the open source languages (ActiveState does great distros for Windows) etc etc. It's a cultural shift. Kids these days are consumers, not producers.
  - pilot_pirx 15y ago
    But they still need to find the information that there are such super simple options. Google "programming tutorial beginner" and the first thing is about C++. Ask in a forum and you will start a long discussion about which language to learn first. There is an incredible amount of information and tools that would allow to start very easy (and without having to pay anything for tools or books), but without somebody experienced it's difficult to sort that out.
    - gaius 15y ago
      OK, but if you wanted to program a VIC-20, you were literally POKEing 6502 opcodes as hex numbers into memory addresses - the development tool VICMON cost extra, and even then you still had to know the mnemonics. And people of my generation still did it. And kids today have everything handed to them on a plate, they just aren't interested.
      - Retric 15y ago
        Adoption has increased, but the web is also far more interesting than playing another text based adventure game. So, I think the percentage of total people has stayed about the same. It's only the percentage of people with access to a computer who learn to program that's changed. Because, the further back you go the fewer things there where to do with a computer other than learn to program.
        gaius 15y ago
        Right, but a kid who uses the web and wants to make their own web page, has basically zero barriers to overcome. All they need is the browser they already use, and Notepad. Sure hosting it somewhere is a bit more work, but trivial compared to distributing a program you wrote in the 80s, where you had to physically exchange cassettes or floppy disks with your friends in the school playground (!) or persuade a magazine to distribute your program as a listing or on the coverdisk.
        rytis 15y ago
        yet there are a lot of concepts they need to digest before they jump into the html/js world. it already means they need to learn two languages (html and js), interaction between them , etc... I'm not even mentioning things like - open notepad, save the file, make sure you get the extension right, fire up the browser, click open (why not in address bar? oh yeah, you can, but tell a kid the file:///<blah> business and see if they remember it after 3-4 days of not doing it) and see what happens. of course it's just a reload away next time. not as easy as qbasic.exe, then typing in some code in, then hitting 'run' and seeing what happens. speaking from experience here, i have 8 and 10 yo, and tried this with both of them. my friend tried with his 9 yo. they seem to get the idea of assignments, loops etc, but it just doesn't excite them. can't generalise on a test sample of 3, so just my 2p.
  - Jem 15y ago
    Totally agree. You're describing how I started... for a kid wanting to write a web page over 10 years ago you were lucky to have access to lissaexplains.com & w3schools.com. Nowadays you've got stackoverflow, smashing mag network, nettuts etc - not to mention a whole shitload of resources offering free code / designs / icons, ready to roll stuff like wordpress, etc.
    - blairbits 15y ago
      LissaExplains... Now there's a site I haven't heard of in a long time. Does anyone know what she's up to these days?
danellis 15y ago
There's something inviting about turning on your computer and being greeted with a BASIC interpreter prompt, the cursor blinking at you expectantly.

marquis 15y ago

I started a 15 year old girl programming yesterday with Processing because she showed an interest in conceptual art for games. I showed her some examples, she downloaded and installed the application on her own as I watched and started entering the tutorial text (not copy/paste either as I might have resorted to). I guided her in what she'll need to get a grip on with her math classes etc, and I heard from her teacher she was still enthralled at the end of the day. I'm not sure how much easier that can get, I was impressed.

eru 15y ago
Just for curiosity: Did you also have a look at PyGame? If yes, how does it compare to Processing?
- sitkack 15y ago
  Processing is way way cleaner than PyGame. It is nice that people are creating interesting things in PyGame but I think more good would come about if it didn't exist so something better could flourish. And I say this as a python programmer since 1998.

officialchicken 15y ago

Why do people continually assume that kids don't have the intellectual capacity to solve problems? The hurdles are only as high as YOU think they are. Kid wants to make a game, kid programs a game. What's so hard about that? The kid doesn't care about the "barrier to entry" any more than issues like platform, methodology, budget, competition, etc. None of those business decisions are part of their need to make the game. I'd say the opposite - Kids can cut the crap and stay focused better than most PM's.

marshray 15y ago
I sure thought I was smarter than all the adults when I was 15. I still have no idea if I was right or not.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]