6 ms·

That title bar thing, good god damn. I have to concentrate my vision on the title bar to place my fucking cursor between non-outlined active sections just to gr

That title bar thing, good god damn. I have to concentrate my vision on the title bar to place my fucking cursor between non-outlined active sections just to grab that motherfucker and shove it over. It is entirely a user experience regression. There's no benefit gained, whatsoever, from moving content to the title bar. Easily moving a window by dragging the title bar was something that "just worked" for at least two decades if not three. Maybe two-odd decades is about the time it takes for enough people to have forgotten the reasons and decide to just remove Chesterton's Fence[0] because, despite the fact that screen area is at an all time high, we still need to squeeze more shit in around the edges. I've already whinged about both scroll bars[1]. I'll also whinge about "dead space" rarity on UIs like DevOps and Jira. "No, i want out of all contexts! Did I accidentally switch that slider by clicking like 10cm to the right of it?" (actual example from within DevOps right now). [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton#Chesterton's_fence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton#Chesterton's_... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37774322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37774322

vladvasiliu 3y ago
> There's no benefit gained, whatsoever, from moving content to the title bar The one benefit I can see is to gain some extra vertical space on the skinny 16:9 screens, especially now that the task bar in windows 11 got thicker and can no longer be moved to a side. They, of course, still haven't gotten around to fixing the auto-hide behavior, so that's still not an option. The rare times I have to use windows, I use edge and I quite like the vertical tabs. This allows for a usable title bar, too.
- raspyberr 3y ago
  You can't actually use reason to understand modern UX/UI designers choices. I've just got Windows 11 at work. They've increased the blank space between all the items in the file exporer quite significantly. They clearly don't care about vertical space because I know have to scroll first in places I could click first before.
  - ckyngcybra 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - beowulfey 3y ago
      Feel free to enlighten all of us, instead of using ad hominem on this particular comment. I, a lowly uninformed user, would love to know what UX/UI is versus what it pretends to be, so that I might understand the decisions being made in Windows 11.
      - ckyngcybra 3y ago
        I would love to enlighten you further but of course my time costs money.
        beowulfey 3y ago
        Ha! If only you could charge for time wasted, eh?
    - BLKNSLVR 3y ago
      Is this a "no real Scotsman" defense of the UI/UX industry becoming subordinate to Marketing Departments?
      - ckyngcybra 3y ago
        I've never heard/read of that concept before. Is it the same as there is no such thing as an honest person?
        CRConrad 3y ago
        > I've never heard/read of that ["No true Scotsman"] concept before. Then get some Allgemeinbildung before you spout off on the "enlightenment", or lack thereof, of others.
  - 3y ago
- steve1977 3y ago
  Usually the smallest "skinny" 16:9 screens you see nowadays on desktops are 24". Windows was perfectly usable on 15" 4:3 screens. The first iMacs were 15" 4:3. So that as such probably wasn't the issue. http://www.displaywars.com/24-inch-16x9-vs-15-inch-4x3 http://www.displaywars.com/24-inch-16x9-vs-15-inch-4x3 What might be an issue though is the use of laptops.
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    Yeah, I was mostly thinking of laptops.
    - steve1977 3y ago
      Ok I can see the point there, especially with the non-movable taskbar (and hideously large ribbon bars in Office etc.) http://www.displaywars.com/15,4-inch-16x9-vs-15-inch-4x3 http://www.displaywars.com/15,4-inch-16x9-vs-15-inch-4x3
- justsomehnguy 3y ago
  > The one benefit I can see is to gain some extra vertical space on the skinny 16:9 screens Only to waste it on the ridiculously big search ribbon. See the current Thunderbird.
tcfhgj 3y ago
> There's no benefit gained, whatsoever, from moving content to the title bar. There is: more space for content, e.g. websites while not removing directly accessible functionaly
- steve1977 3y ago
  If the content would make better use of screen estate, that probably would not be necessary.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  If things are so tight in the layout that taking the title bar away is actually necessary, then the layout is already fundamentally bad.
  - tcfhgj 3y ago
    It's not necessary, still helps
    - david422 3y ago
      Oh come on. Why even have a title bar at that point. Why not just stick a little tab on the side and get rid of the title bar entirely.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        Is "Yes, good idea." the response you're expecting? Because that's my response. But title bars are mandatory, so that's why not.
        david422 3y ago
        > But title bars are mandatory, so that's why not. What does that even mean? That's the whole point of the discussion - standard UI elements have been bastardized so much, might as well just keep the trend going.
rouvax 3y ago
FWIW, and I know it's not as good as patching the root cause, on Windows environment I have found relief in using AltDrag (and/or its fork AltSnap [1]). You can grab and move a window by pressing Alt and then clicking wherever you want on the window. There are also a few other tricks regarding window maximizing/resizing etc. [1] https://github.com/RamonUnch/AltSnap https://github.com/RamonUnch/AltSnap
canucker2016 3y ago
Alt-Space, 'M' is your friendly keyboard method to move a window around. After pressing those three keys, use the cursor keys to move the window around as you desire, and press the Enter key when you're happy with the window's new location or press the Esc key to cancel the move op. Works really well when the window's title bar has been moved offscreen for some reason. IBM's CUA for the win. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access
- efreak 3y ago
  Once you've moved the window with the arrow keys you can also use the mouse to move the window. The problem with this is that it's _slow_, and it doesn't actually work on some software. Some non-native window frameworks like to disable (or don't implement) all hotkeys by default, including f10, Alt+space and sometimes even the tab key. IMO the only reason for a program to disable the standard windowing mechanics is because it's intended to be used as an overlay (programs like launchy or slickrun).
- CRConrad 3y ago
  You wanna freak out anyone under the age of about 45-50, use the [Ctrl]-[Ins] / [Shift]-[Ins] / [Shift]-[Del] shortcuts while they're watching your keyboard. Everyone nowadays only knows those Apple-copied [Ctrl]-[C]/[V]/[X] ones, and thinks they're the God-given Standard.
Naracion 3y ago
Ironic, to some degree. I agree with the overall sentiment,but: > There's no benefit gained, whatsoever, from moving content to the title bar. But also: > Chesterton's Fence >>The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, 'I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away.' To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: 'If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.' There are always pros and cons to every design decision. As technology develops, we create new tools to interact with an ever-expanding content base. By moving things to the title bar, you gain back some real estate that you can dedicate to this ever expanding set of other tools and content. There are other design paradigms that can be used for this, but it's a fairly simple (and naive) implementation / solution to this problem to move some of the stuff to the title bar which (visually) appears to be wasted space. But visual space != interactive space, so
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > By moving things to the title bar, you gain back some real estate that you can dedicate to this ever expanding set of other tools and content. But the loss of the title bar causes actual pain and interferes with practical use. It's hard to imagine any tools/content that would be worth that loss.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    The only programs I have that are putting things in the titlebar are putting tabs there, and those programs do not cause me notable problems. For me the positives are much stronger than the negatives.
    - hulitu 3y ago
      Well, MS Excel , Word etc. put a search widget and a user widget in the.title bar which occupy the whole thing. Moving Office windows is a pain.
      - 3y ago
lostmsu 3y ago
Just use a tiling window manager. In mine you move windows around by holding middle mouse button anywhere on the window, or left button with some key combo. https://github.com/StackWM https://github.com/StackWM

vladvasiliu 3y ago

> There's no benefit gained, whatsoever, from moving content to the title bar The one benefit I can see is to gain some extra vertical space on the skinny 16:9 screens, especially now that the task bar in windows 11 got thicker and can no longer be moved to a side. They, of course, still haven't gotten around to fixing the auto-hide behavior, so that's still not an option. The rare times I have to use windows, I use edge and I quite like the vertical tabs. This allows for a usable title bar, too.

raspyberr 3y ago
You can't actually use reason to understand modern UX/UI designers choices. I've just got Windows 11 at work. They've increased the blank space between all the items in the file exporer quite significantly. They clearly don't care about vertical space because I know have to scroll first in places I could click first before.
- ckyngcybra 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - beowulfey 3y ago
    Feel free to enlighten all of us, instead of using ad hominem on this particular comment. I, a lowly uninformed user, would love to know what UX/UI is versus what it pretends to be, so that I might understand the decisions being made in Windows 11.
    - ckyngcybra 3y ago
      I would love to enlighten you further but of course my time costs money.
      - beowulfey 3y ago
        Ha! If only you could charge for time wasted, eh?
  - BLKNSLVR 3y ago
    Is this a "no real Scotsman" defense of the UI/UX industry becoming subordinate to Marketing Departments?
    - ckyngcybra 3y ago
      I've never heard/read of that concept before. Is it the same as there is no such thing as an honest person?
      - CRConrad 3y ago
        > I've never heard/read of that ["No true Scotsman"] concept before. Then get some Allgemeinbildung before you spout off on the "enlightenment", or lack thereof, of others.
- 3y ago
steve1977 3y ago
Usually the smallest "skinny" 16:9 screens you see nowadays on desktops are 24". Windows was perfectly usable on 15" 4:3 screens. The first iMacs were 15" 4:3. So that as such probably wasn't the issue. http://www.displaywars.com/24-inch-16x9-vs-15-inch-4x3 http://www.displaywars.com/24-inch-16x9-vs-15-inch-4x3 What might be an issue though is the use of laptops.
- vladvasiliu 3y ago
  Yeah, I was mostly thinking of laptops.
  - steve1977 3y ago
    Ok I can see the point there, especially with the non-movable taskbar (and hideously large ribbon bars in Office etc.) http://www.displaywars.com/15,4-inch-16x9-vs-15-inch-4x3 http://www.displaywars.com/15,4-inch-16x9-vs-15-inch-4x3
justsomehnguy 3y ago
> The one benefit I can see is to gain some extra vertical space on the skinny 16:9 screens Only to waste it on the ridiculously big search ribbon. See the current Thunderbird.

tcfhgj 3y ago

> There's no benefit gained, whatsoever, from moving content to the title bar. There is: more space for content, e.g. websites while not removing directly accessible functionaly

steve1977 3y ago
If the content would make better use of screen estate, that probably would not be necessary.
JohnFen 3y ago
If things are so tight in the layout that taking the title bar away is actually necessary, then the layout is already fundamentally bad.
- tcfhgj 3y ago
  It's not necessary, still helps
  - david422 3y ago
    Oh come on. Why even have a title bar at that point. Why not just stick a little tab on the side and get rid of the title bar entirely.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      Is "Yes, good idea." the response you're expecting? Because that's my response. But title bars are mandatory, so that's why not.
      - david422 3y ago
        > But title bars are mandatory, so that's why not. What does that even mean? That's the whole point of the discussion - standard UI elements have been bastardized so much, might as well just keep the trend going.

rouvax 3y ago

FWIW, and I know it's not as good as patching the root cause, on Windows environment I have found relief in using AltDrag (and/or its fork AltSnap [1]). You can grab and move a window by pressing Alt and then clicking wherever you want on the window. There are also a few other tricks regarding window maximizing/resizing etc. [1] https://github.com/RamonUnch/AltSnap https://github.com/RamonUnch/AltSnap

canucker2016 3y ago

Alt-Space, 'M' is your friendly keyboard method to move a window around. After pressing those three keys, use the cursor keys to move the window around as you desire, and press the Enter key when you're happy with the window's new location or press the Esc key to cancel the move op. Works really well when the window's title bar has been moved offscreen for some reason. IBM's CUA for the win. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access

efreak 3y ago
Once you've moved the window with the arrow keys you can also use the mouse to move the window. The problem with this is that it's _slow_, and it doesn't actually work on some software. Some non-native window frameworks like to disable (or don't implement) all hotkeys by default, including f10, Alt+space and sometimes even the tab key. IMO the only reason for a program to disable the standard windowing mechanics is because it's intended to be used as an overlay (programs like launchy or slickrun).
CRConrad 3y ago
You wanna freak out anyone under the age of about 45-50, use the [Ctrl]-[Ins] / [Shift]-[Ins] / [Shift]-[Del] shortcuts while they're watching your keyboard. Everyone nowadays only knows those Apple-copied [Ctrl]-[C]/[V]/[X] ones, and thinks they're the God-given Standard.

Naracion 3y ago

Ironic, to some degree. I agree with the overall sentiment,but: > There's no benefit gained, whatsoever, from moving content to the title bar. But also: > Chesterton's Fence >>The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, 'I don't see the use of this; let us clear it away.' To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: 'If you don't see the use of it, I certainly won't let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.' There are always pros and cons to every design decision. As technology develops, we create new tools to interact with an ever-expanding content base. By moving things to the title bar, you gain back some real estate that you can dedicate to this ever expanding set of other tools and content. There are other design paradigms that can be used for this, but it's a fairly simple (and naive) implementation / solution to this problem to move some of the stuff to the title bar which (visually) appears to be wasted space. But visual space != interactive space, so

JohnFen 3y ago
> By moving things to the title bar, you gain back some real estate that you can dedicate to this ever expanding set of other tools and content. But the loss of the title bar causes actual pain and interferes with practical use. It's hard to imagine any tools/content that would be worth that loss.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  The only programs I have that are putting things in the titlebar are putting tabs there, and those programs do not cause me notable problems. For me the positives are much stronger than the negatives.
  - hulitu 3y ago
    Well, MS Excel , Word etc. put a search widget and a user widget in the.title bar which occupy the whole thing. Moving Office windows is a pain.
    - 3y ago

lostmsu 3y ago

Just use a tiling window manager. In mine you move windows around by holding middle mouse button anywhere on the window, or left button with some key combo. https://github.com/StackWM https://github.com/StackWM