4 ms·

If you only can buy this or a M2 MBP, which one would you get?

holografix 3y ago
There’s no doubt in anyone’s mind which laptop is better value for money. People that buy framework laptops buy it out of principle. Repairability, upgradability, openness, Linux support. Etc
- nine_k 3y ago
  Do repairability, upgradability, configurability have zero value?
  - fiddlerwoaroof 3y ago
    For the typical laptop? I’m going to replace my Mac before I need non-warranty service. I’d say the typical user is in the same boat
  - noirbot 3y ago
    I feel like they either have zero or infinite value. On pure "which laptop would I pick to do a task" it's almost never going to be a Framework. It's objectively a worse laptop for almost all daily tasks. The issue is that repairability and upgradability are, unless you regularly break your computer, at most a once a year occurrence. On that day, you have a better laptop with the Framework (maybe). The other 364, you're dealing with new and novel frustrations you haven't had to deal with for over a decade in computing. Is your value system such that, being able to potentially manually replace a broken part is worth dealing with a bad computer the rest of the time? Just today, I spent 30 minutes just trying to work out how to get my system clock to sync with my hardware clock, and how to get both of them to be accurate, because the Framework's battery management is so abysmal that I have to keep it shut down at all times it's not in active use/charging, and even fully shut down, it'll still so deeply discharge the battery after a week that the bios loses power and unsyncs the hardware clock. It's quite possibly the worst computer I've used in 20 years.
    - MrDresden 3y ago
      > ..the Framework's battery management is so abysmal that I have to keep it shut down at all times it's not in active use/charging, and even fully shut down, it'll still so deeply discharge the battery after a week that the bios loses power and unsyncs the hardware clock. I'm not sure, but this sounds like it might be the design flaw that was in the first generation where the RTC battery did not charge via the main battery but from the plugin charger. Louis Rossman mentioned this in a recent video[0]. [0]: https://youtu.be/6Sw06swtgY0?t=584&si=ia34VzC9N50HdOOL https://youtu.be/6Sw06swtgY0?t=584&si=ia34VzC9N50HdOOL
      - noirbot 3y ago
        That seems about right. I'm about to just try to sell this laptop. It's the most I've ever spent on what's probably the worst computing device I've ever had. I could spend most of $1200 replacing all the flawed parts and underperforming parts, but at that point, I'll just buy a computer that works instead.
- schmorptron 3y ago
  Eh, with value for money when getting a usable config for a macbook pro with 32gigs of ram and at least a terabyte or 2 of storage, you're looking at prices that are well above the framework to the tune of 1000€ to 1500€ more, especially if you bring your own memory and storage.
rwky 3y ago
This (or in my case the intel one) I find developing on Linux for Linux is better than developing on Mac for Linux (and yes I know you can install Linux on a Mac but the new M2 Linux stuff is all a bit too new for me)! Now if I was am iOS/Mac dev then a Mac. It's the good ol' right tool for the job.
chx 3y ago
That's really simple: I refuse to buy a laptop which has non-removable storage.
cesarb 3y ago
> If you only can buy this or a M2 MBP, which one would you get? The M2 MBP, because it's available in my country (Brazil). I could probably find a way to import a Framework, but besides being a lot of work, and the import duties being no joke (AFAIK, to a first approximation, they would double the price), there's also the pain if something on it breaks and has to be repaired under warranty (IIRC, the rules for temporary export for repair without having to pay extra export and import duties are quite complicated). And to top it off, since it's a laptop, there's the extra annoyance of it not having the ABNT2 keyboard layout. And that's all if it doesn't get sent back by customs for being a radio product (due to the WiFi and Bluetooth) without the appropriate certification. The Framework laptop and the Steam Deck are the top two in my list of electronic products which I'd want to buy if the manufacturer sold them in my country, but I'm not getting my hopes up. For now, I'm making do with a Dell.
kohlerm 3y ago
If you want to run an LLM locally then an M2, otherwise this.
lost_tourist 3y ago
M2 because my days of enjoying tinkering with the OS are over. I enjoy higher level activities on my computer to be honest. Programming, gaming, checking email without working about 1-15 second random hangs :)
e12e 3y ago
I'm not sure they appeal to the same group of users. macOS is IMNHO much worse than GNU/Linux with a proper window manager, much less comfortable to use with multiple desktops, and forces the use of a mouse/trackpad way too much.[1] The m2 can run Linux - but external display support is probably a long way off. So for the user wanting to run Linux - m2 isn't really viable - unless you actually work on it with just the built-in screen - for me that doesn't work ergonomically. I have the m2 - it's not terrible - I suspect I'd prefer one of these. [1] Rectangle and AutoRaise helps a lot, making the UX livable: https://github.com/sbmpost/AutoRaise https://github.com/sbmpost/AutoRaise https://github.com/rxhanson/Rectangle https://github.com/rxhanson/Rectangle

There’s no doubt in anyone’s mind which laptop is better value for money. People that buy framework laptops buy it out of principle. Repairability, upgradability, openness, Linux support. Etc

nine_k 3y ago
Do repairability, upgradability, configurability have zero value?
- fiddlerwoaroof 3y ago
  For the typical laptop? I’m going to replace my Mac before I need non-warranty service. I’d say the typical user is in the same boat
- noirbot 3y ago
  I feel like they either have zero or infinite value. On pure "which laptop would I pick to do a task" it's almost never going to be a Framework. It's objectively a worse laptop for almost all daily tasks. The issue is that repairability and upgradability are, unless you regularly break your computer, at most a once a year occurrence. On that day, you have a better laptop with the Framework (maybe). The other 364, you're dealing with new and novel frustrations you haven't had to deal with for over a decade in computing. Is your value system such that, being able to potentially manually replace a broken part is worth dealing with a bad computer the rest of the time? Just today, I spent 30 minutes just trying to work out how to get my system clock to sync with my hardware clock, and how to get both of them to be accurate, because the Framework's battery management is so abysmal that I have to keep it shut down at all times it's not in active use/charging, and even fully shut down, it'll still so deeply discharge the battery after a week that the bios loses power and unsyncs the hardware clock. It's quite possibly the worst computer I've used in 20 years.
  - MrDresden 3y ago
    > ..the Framework's battery management is so abysmal that I have to keep it shut down at all times it's not in active use/charging, and even fully shut down, it'll still so deeply discharge the battery after a week that the bios loses power and unsyncs the hardware clock. I'm not sure, but this sounds like it might be the design flaw that was in the first generation where the RTC battery did not charge via the main battery but from the plugin charger. Louis Rossman mentioned this in a recent video[0]. [0]: https://youtu.be/6Sw06swtgY0?t=584&si=ia34VzC9N50HdOOL https://youtu.be/6Sw06swtgY0?t=584&si=ia34VzC9N50HdOOL
    - noirbot 3y ago
      That seems about right. I'm about to just try to sell this laptop. It's the most I've ever spent on what's probably the worst computing device I've ever had. I could spend most of $1200 replacing all the flawed parts and underperforming parts, but at that point, I'll just buy a computer that works instead.
schmorptron 3y ago
Eh, with value for money when getting a usable config for a macbook pro with 32gigs of ram and at least a terabyte or 2 of storage, you're looking at prices that are well above the framework to the tune of 1000€ to 1500€ more, especially if you bring your own memory and storage.

rwky 3y ago

This (or in my case the intel one) I find developing on Linux for Linux is better than developing on Mac for Linux (and yes I know you can install Linux on a Mac but the new M2 Linux stuff is all a bit too new for me)! Now if I was am iOS/Mac dev then a Mac. It's the good ol' right tool for the job.

chx 3y ago

That's really simple: I refuse to buy a laptop which has non-removable storage.

cesarb 3y ago

> If you only can buy this or a M2 MBP, which one would you get? The M2 MBP, because it's available in my country (Brazil). I could probably find a way to import a Framework, but besides being a lot of work, and the import duties being no joke (AFAIK, to a first approximation, they would double the price), there's also the pain if something on it breaks and has to be repaired under warranty (IIRC, the rules for temporary export for repair without having to pay extra export and import duties are quite complicated). And to top it off, since it's a laptop, there's the extra annoyance of it not having the ABNT2 keyboard layout. And that's all if it doesn't get sent back by customs for being a radio product (due to the WiFi and Bluetooth) without the appropriate certification. The Framework laptop and the Steam Deck are the top two in my list of electronic products which I'd want to buy if the manufacturer sold them in my country, but I'm not getting my hopes up. For now, I'm making do with a Dell.

kohlerm 3y ago

If you want to run an LLM locally then an M2, otherwise this.

lost_tourist 3y ago

M2 because my days of enjoying tinkering with the OS are over. I enjoy higher level activities on my computer to be honest. Programming, gaming, checking email without working about 1-15 second random hangs :)

e12e 3y ago

I'm not sure they appeal to the same group of users. macOS is IMNHO much worse than GNU/Linux with a proper window manager, much less comfortable to use with multiple desktops, and forces the use of a mouse/trackpad way too much.[1] The m2 can run Linux - but external display support is probably a long way off. So for the user wanting to run Linux - m2 isn't really viable - unless you actually work on it with just the built-in screen - for me that doesn't work ergonomically. I have the m2 - it's not terrible - I suspect I'd prefer one of these. [1] Rectangle and AutoRaise helps a lot, making the UX livable: https://github.com/sbmpost/AutoRaise https://github.com/sbmpost/AutoRaise https://github.com/rxhanson/Rectangle https://github.com/rxhanson/Rectangle