9 ms·

Third place

82 points by juliend2 3y ago

zvmaz 3y ago
What is a "third place" for introverts who are not very keen on socializing?
- yunwal 3y ago
  A makerspace
- hiatus 3y ago
  Online forums, libraries, bookstores.
  - mindcrime 3y ago
    Online forums In terms of "virtual third places" I'd probably say that HN is that for me. :-) I'm guessing I wouldn't be alone in that regard...
- mindcrime 3y ago
  I don't think there's any particular requirement to socialize when at a "third place". So if you just go sit in a cafe, coffee-shop, bar, etc., and work with your headphones on the entire time, you're still enjoying a "third place". Some people (count me in this bucket) get "something" from simply being around other people, but don't necessarily want extensive engagement with those people - at least not on an ongoing basis. Sometimes you just want to listen to the Youtube video you're listening to, or finish the code module you're working on, or whatever. :-) Me, I like sitting in the cafe at the local Barnes & Noble. I get to enjoy coffee, books, wifi, and a pleasant ambiance. And for the most part I can regulate how much I socialize with the people around me. I say "for the most part" because I'm such a regular there that I've gotten to know a lot of the employees and other regular visitors and have formed friendships with a number of those people, to the point that sometimes when I go in there I have a lot of people coming over to chit-chat. Which is OK in that they're people I enjoy talking to, but sometimes if I'm really trying to get some specific task done, it can be a little bit frustrating and I struggle with how to disengage from them without seeming overly rude. Still, on balance, I get a lot out of hanging out there.
- denvaar 3y ago
  I'm like my cat, in that I like to be near people, but not necessarily engaging. Sitting in a coffee shop doing my own thing is really nice sometimes.
- karaterobot 3y ago
  I don't think it's really changed. There have always been introverts. So: "churches, cafes, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores, stoops and parks", to name just a few. The difference is that there's a new third place called the internet that has replaced those for a lot of people, with many negative consequences and a few positive ones.
- hasbot 3y ago
  Obviously it depends on the introvert, but any quiet, casual space where the focus isn't on socializing. So for me, some places that come to mind are a climbing gym with plenty of space for lounging, makers space, a bookstore with a cafe, library, an outdoor public mall with seating and food, and maybe a dog park.
- standardUser 3y ago
  Libraries
- CaffeinatedDev 3y ago
  I think in the future, zuck is hoping it's the metaverse. Currently, for me, it's been hiking trails, quiet cafes, and bookstores where I can be in public, but generally avoid large crowds and if there are interactions they're most likely one on one.
- trelane 3y ago
  Mine is parks, and nature generally
- _chu1 3y ago
  Before Discord was mainstream (2016-2018) there were some really fun public voice chats but now its 90% minge and not what it used to be. I've also met some pretty crazy people on the voice chat in Valve games and occasionally IRC. I go on SpaceHey a lot now to find new people to talk to.
hiatus 3y ago
The diminishing availability of third places is a true tragedy. It is increasingly difficult to find places where you can just exist, without a prerequisite financial transaction.
- datameta 3y ago
  I think if anything availability increases, but may require more perceived effort (despite lower bar to discovery).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- unpopularopp 3y ago
  >The diminishing availability of third places Are they? The Wikipedia article says "examples of third places include churches, cafes, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores" Not sure I see any of these diminishing. I'd rather say that people changed not the availability of public spaces. Everyone is more individualistic now, less social roles. See online dating. If I can sit at home and do "dating" with 0 effort then why should I go to the a cafe, club, gym etc? Otoh most people would say they explicitly don't want to get asked out randomly in a gym for example. So it's a self feeding loop.
  - justinator 3y ago
    Many coffee shops in my town have closed due to high rents. The ones that have stayed have had their hours shortened. The one I got to is only open for 8 hours/day. My drink is now $6 too. Libraries have to constantly prove their relevancy. My town again had a huge city council fight to fund a new library district - it wasn't pretty. There was an announcement last week that the largest gym in town is closing. My gym costs $100/month and that's one of the cheaper ones. Many of the bookstores in town are still open, but the used bookstores are mostly long gone. A lot of them are turning to be more like gift shops with books. The only used bookstore left is also a coffee shop (another favorite). One of the bigger outside seating, family-friendly (cringe for me) bars with food trucks and all that has been run through the mud lately because of their ties with an anti-woman, anti-gay church that rented (well had been given for free) space for worship there. It all gets messy. And let's not forget Covid shut most all this down for a time and people changed their daily living patterns. Helps for any third space left that this is a university town where PHD graduates stay as well as a training ground for athletes of all types (though leaning more on endurance athletes).
itslennysfault 3y ago
This was a core part of Starbuck's strategy. They wanted to be the defacto 3rd place, and were making great progress. Before Starbucks most coffee in the US was diners or togo drip in a styro cup. https://www.fastcompany.com/887990/starbucks-third-place-and-creating-ultimate-customer-experience https://www.fastcompany.com/887990/starbucks-third-place-and... Unfortunately, Kevin Johnson pushed hard to maximize profits and cut costs to the direct detriment of the original "3rd place" vision. His focus was on pushing toward smaller to go / drive thru locations. The logic is pretty obvious. Smaller places that sell more units are more profitable. Large comfy coffee shops where people sit sipping 1 coffee for hours aren't. Laxman Narasimhan took over this year and it is unclear how that will impact things, but I doubt "being the 3rd place" is even a goal of Starbucks anymore.
- jrmg 3y ago
  The Starbucks near me, pre-pandemic, always had a few people sitting in it with laptops or books or sitting with a friend. During the pandemic it was refurbished. All the tables were removed, and the floor size of the shop was halved (I guess they have a big stockroom area or something now?! I can’t imagine what it’s used for.) So there are now no tables, and only a small public area at the front, which I’d say is mostly taken up by people who’ve ordered online silently coming in and standing until their drinks arrive on the counter to pick up. Not only can’t I sit there (which if I’m honest I hardly ever did), but it’s a much more unpleasant place to be in now.
  - at_a_remove 3y ago
    This is a little embarrassing to admit, but my favored Starbucks was very much a third place. It had a fireplace with shelves to either side. I got some old books and made a little library out of it. Even got some Starbucks-green metal bookends. Books for the kiddies. It looked cozy and nice. The manager loved it. Then COVID hit and everyone was bafflingly weird about transmission via surfaces (that was the WHO's stubborn take on it then) and whoosh, all of it gone.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  Starbucks and similar chains tend to have flat walls without any sound dampening, making them extremely loud, and also their furniture is intentionally designed to merely look comfy, while becoming painful to stay in for long. Even if they don't have a policy (like many independent cafes in Europe now do) of sending a waitress around to politely nudge you to order more or get out, they are not satisfying places to meet up with friends for hours like the traditional Central European cafe of yore.
kevmarsden 3y ago
Tsh Oxenreider recently posted a nice piece on third places. https://thecommon.place/p/thirdplacehomesteads https://thecommon.place/p/thirdplacehomesteads I'm definitely missing have a third place in my suburban life.
patmcc 3y ago
I've been full-time remote for 9 years, and the part that's really taking a toll on me is that, without third places, and without work, I have only the "first place". And that's just not enough to be healthy.
- coldpie 3y ago
  Offices still exist. You can come join those of us who like to go in to the office, if you want :)
  - mikewarot 3y ago
    Offices are the second place, and we need a break from them.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - coldpie 3y ago
      Sure. Just saying (yes, yes, no) may be an improvement over (yes, no, no).
  - patmcc 3y ago
    Haha, yah, I'm working on that. :) For family reasons I've been inconveniently far from offices for a while, and have a really good employer that allowed WFH (long before covid), but I've gotten pretty convinced at least 2 days/week in-office is probably important for my mental health. I'd encourage anyone to consider if full-time remote is working for you; maybe it is, and for me I think it did for a time, but most of us humans (even introverts) are social creatures, and unless you're good about finding a third place, or making friends elsewhere, work is still a really good place to do that.
riversflow 3y ago
Hmmm. As someone lucky enough to have a solid group of friends I’ve been a big user of Third places throughout my life. However, for years now sitting in a voice lobby(Discord) with my friends has replaced it. Same people, same vibe, more convenient.
4star3star 3y ago
This has been on my mind for years, though I hadn't been aware of a the formal definition of a third place. If you grew up religious and then found yourself secular as an adult, you may miss that gathering together that goes with a church service, if not the accompanying beliefs. It's really too bad there isn't something similar but without centering around a core spiritual belief. How cool would it be to have a building with a kitchen and a sound system and huge screen and instruments and a gymnasium and occasional childcare? You could still have book clubs and speeches, but the book would not be a religious book, and the speeches could be about anything apolitical.
- UtopiaPunk 3y ago
  You're almost describing a public library, and public libraries are, in fact, extremely cool
  - 4star3star 3y ago
    Public libraries should have gymnasiums!
agf 3y ago
A lot of the comments here are bemoaning the lack of third places, but don't seem to have read the intro paragraph of the linked Wikipedia article. > churches, cafes, bars, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores, makerspaces, stoops and parks I would also mention that many planned or intentional communities explicitly include a third place -- a community building, clubhouse, country club, student union, retirement home lounges, etc. You'll also find rec centers, YMCAs, JCCs, etc. Don't give up on finding your "third place" just because you don't belong to a church or have a for-profit business in your area that wants you to hang out all day.
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
May 2022, Starbucks: We're creating the digital Third Place (crypto/metaverse nonsense) https://stories.starbucks.com/stories/2022/starbucks-creating-the-digital-third-place/ https://stories.starbucks.com/stories/2022/starbucks-creatin...
keiferski 3y ago
I don’t think true third places really exist in the Western world anymore, at least on a large scale. If you read about the history of coffee houses in Vienna or in Istanbul, they were entirely different from the commercial-product focused coffee shop of today. In such places, the coffee was almost an afterthought, secondary to the social life that went on there. The heyday of the coffee house was the turn of the nineteenth century when writers like Peter Altenberg, Alfred Polgar, Egon Friedell, Karl Kraus, Hermann Broch and Friedrich Torberg made them their preferred place of work and pleasure. Many famous artists, scientists, and politicians of the period such as Arthur Schnitzler, Stefan Zweig, Egon Schiele, Gustav Klimt, Adolf Loos, Theodor Herzl, and Alfred Adler.[15] Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Leon Trotsky and Josip Broz Tito were all living in Vienna in 1913, and they were constant coffee house patrons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house Ottoman era coffeehouses democratized education across all stratums of society. Because individuals from a variety of backgrounds gathered in these coffeehouses, illiterate or low literacy people could sit alongside educated individuals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_coffeehouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_coffeehouse I’m not sure such places could exist in a world with smartphones and to-go drinks.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dzonga 3y ago
  smartphones - it's only consumption of information not filtering of information that would be allowed by discussion. hence why we've so much misinformed citizenry. Thanks for the links
joeman1000 3y ago
I discovered a strange third place last night: a Counter Strike Source server in my country. It had about ten different people talking over voice chat. They were all very frank and cheerful, and it seemed like they congregate there each night. I’m going to start joining regularly.
npteljes 3y ago
World of Warcraft was a third place for me and my friends, and for some of my internet friends as well. The game itself offered low-intensity, low-attention interactions too, like fishing, and we would combine these activities with just hanging out, but online. It's one of the most memorable things for me from my time in that game, and that's surely because of how important this function is socially.

Third place

82 points by juliend2 3y ago

zvmaz 3y ago

What is a "third place" for introverts who are not very keen on socializing?

yunwal 3y ago
A makerspace
hiatus 3y ago
Online forums, libraries, bookstores.
- mindcrime 3y ago
  Online forums In terms of "virtual third places" I'd probably say that HN is that for me. :-) I'm guessing I wouldn't be alone in that regard...
mindcrime 3y ago
I don't think there's any particular requirement to socialize when at a "third place". So if you just go sit in a cafe, coffee-shop, bar, etc., and work with your headphones on the entire time, you're still enjoying a "third place". Some people (count me in this bucket) get "something" from simply being around other people, but don't necessarily want extensive engagement with those people - at least not on an ongoing basis. Sometimes you just want to listen to the Youtube video you're listening to, or finish the code module you're working on, or whatever. :-) Me, I like sitting in the cafe at the local Barnes & Noble. I get to enjoy coffee, books, wifi, and a pleasant ambiance. And for the most part I can regulate how much I socialize with the people around me. I say "for the most part" because I'm such a regular there that I've gotten to know a lot of the employees and other regular visitors and have formed friendships with a number of those people, to the point that sometimes when I go in there I have a lot of people coming over to chit-chat. Which is OK in that they're people I enjoy talking to, but sometimes if I'm really trying to get some specific task done, it can be a little bit frustrating and I struggle with how to disengage from them without seeming overly rude. Still, on balance, I get a lot out of hanging out there.
denvaar 3y ago
I'm like my cat, in that I like to be near people, but not necessarily engaging. Sitting in a coffee shop doing my own thing is really nice sometimes.
karaterobot 3y ago
I don't think it's really changed. There have always been introverts. So: "churches, cafes, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores, stoops and parks", to name just a few. The difference is that there's a new third place called the internet that has replaced those for a lot of people, with many negative consequences and a few positive ones.
hasbot 3y ago
Obviously it depends on the introvert, but any quiet, casual space where the focus isn't on socializing. So for me, some places that come to mind are a climbing gym with plenty of space for lounging, makers space, a bookstore with a cafe, library, an outdoor public mall with seating and food, and maybe a dog park.
standardUser 3y ago
Libraries
CaffeinatedDev 3y ago
I think in the future, zuck is hoping it's the metaverse. Currently, for me, it's been hiking trails, quiet cafes, and bookstores where I can be in public, but generally avoid large crowds and if there are interactions they're most likely one on one.
trelane 3y ago
Mine is parks, and nature generally
_chu1 3y ago
Before Discord was mainstream (2016-2018) there were some really fun public voice chats but now its 90% minge and not what it used to be. I've also met some pretty crazy people on the voice chat in Valve games and occasionally IRC. I go on SpaceHey a lot now to find new people to talk to.

hiatus 3y ago

The diminishing availability of third places is a true tragedy. It is increasingly difficult to find places where you can just exist, without a prerequisite financial transaction.

datameta 3y ago
I think if anything availability increases, but may require more perceived effort (despite lower bar to discovery).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
unpopularopp 3y ago
>The diminishing availability of third places Are they? The Wikipedia article says "examples of third places include churches, cafes, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores" Not sure I see any of these diminishing. I'd rather say that people changed not the availability of public spaces. Everyone is more individualistic now, less social roles. See online dating. If I can sit at home and do "dating" with 0 effort then why should I go to the a cafe, club, gym etc? Otoh most people would say they explicitly don't want to get asked out randomly in a gym for example. So it's a self feeding loop.
- justinator 3y ago
  Many coffee shops in my town have closed due to high rents. The ones that have stayed have had their hours shortened. The one I got to is only open for 8 hours/day. My drink is now $6 too. Libraries have to constantly prove their relevancy. My town again had a huge city council fight to fund a new library district - it wasn't pretty. There was an announcement last week that the largest gym in town is closing. My gym costs $100/month and that's one of the cheaper ones. Many of the bookstores in town are still open, but the used bookstores are mostly long gone. A lot of them are turning to be more like gift shops with books. The only used bookstore left is also a coffee shop (another favorite). One of the bigger outside seating, family-friendly (cringe for me) bars with food trucks and all that has been run through the mud lately because of their ties with an anti-woman, anti-gay church that rented (well had been given for free) space for worship there. It all gets messy. And let's not forget Covid shut most all this down for a time and people changed their daily living patterns. Helps for any third space left that this is a university town where PHD graduates stay as well as a training ground for athletes of all types (though leaning more on endurance athletes).

itslennysfault 3y ago

This was a core part of Starbuck's strategy. They wanted to be the defacto 3rd place, and were making great progress. Before Starbucks most coffee in the US was diners or togo drip in a styro cup. https://www.fastcompany.com/887990/starbucks-third-place-and-creating-ultimate-customer-experience https://www.fastcompany.com/887990/starbucks-third-place-and... Unfortunately, Kevin Johnson pushed hard to maximize profits and cut costs to the direct detriment of the original "3rd place" vision. His focus was on pushing toward smaller to go / drive thru locations. The logic is pretty obvious. Smaller places that sell more units are more profitable. Large comfy coffee shops where people sit sipping 1 coffee for hours aren't. Laxman Narasimhan took over this year and it is unclear how that will impact things, but I doubt "being the 3rd place" is even a goal of Starbucks anymore.

jrmg 3y ago
The Starbucks near me, pre-pandemic, always had a few people sitting in it with laptops or books or sitting with a friend. During the pandemic it was refurbished. All the tables were removed, and the floor size of the shop was halved (I guess they have a big stockroom area or something now?! I can’t imagine what it’s used for.) So there are now no tables, and only a small public area at the front, which I’d say is mostly taken up by people who’ve ordered online silently coming in and standing until their drinks arrive on the counter to pick up. Not only can’t I sit there (which if I’m honest I hardly ever did), but it’s a much more unpleasant place to be in now.
- at_a_remove 3y ago
  This is a little embarrassing to admit, but my favored Starbucks was very much a third place. It had a fireplace with shelves to either side. I got some old books and made a little library out of it. Even got some Starbucks-green metal bookends. Books for the kiddies. It looked cozy and nice. The manager loved it. Then COVID hit and everyone was bafflingly weird about transmission via surfaces (that was the WHO's stubborn take on it then) and whoosh, all of it gone.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
Starbucks and similar chains tend to have flat walls without any sound dampening, making them extremely loud, and also their furniture is intentionally designed to merely look comfy, while becoming painful to stay in for long. Even if they don't have a policy (like many independent cafes in Europe now do) of sending a waitress around to politely nudge you to order more or get out, they are not satisfying places to meet up with friends for hours like the traditional Central European cafe of yore.

kevmarsden 3y ago

Tsh Oxenreider recently posted a nice piece on third places. https://thecommon.place/p/thirdplacehomesteads https://thecommon.place/p/thirdplacehomesteads I'm definitely missing have a third place in my suburban life.

patmcc 3y ago

I've been full-time remote for 9 years, and the part that's really taking a toll on me is that, without third places, and without work, I have only the "first place". And that's just not enough to be healthy.

coldpie 3y ago
Offices still exist. You can come join those of us who like to go in to the office, if you want :)
- mikewarot 3y ago
  Offices are the second place, and we need a break from them.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - coldpie 3y ago
    Sure. Just saying (yes, yes, no) may be an improvement over (yes, no, no).
- patmcc 3y ago
  Haha, yah, I'm working on that. :) For family reasons I've been inconveniently far from offices for a while, and have a really good employer that allowed WFH (long before covid), but I've gotten pretty convinced at least 2 days/week in-office is probably important for my mental health. I'd encourage anyone to consider if full-time remote is working for you; maybe it is, and for me I think it did for a time, but most of us humans (even introverts) are social creatures, and unless you're good about finding a third place, or making friends elsewhere, work is still a really good place to do that.

riversflow 3y ago

Hmmm. As someone lucky enough to have a solid group of friends I’ve been a big user of Third places throughout my life. However, for years now sitting in a voice lobby(Discord) with my friends has replaced it. Same people, same vibe, more convenient.

4star3star 3y ago

This has been on my mind for years, though I hadn't been aware of a the formal definition of a third place. If you grew up religious and then found yourself secular as an adult, you may miss that gathering together that goes with a church service, if not the accompanying beliefs. It's really too bad there isn't something similar but without centering around a core spiritual belief. How cool would it be to have a building with a kitchen and a sound system and huge screen and instruments and a gymnasium and occasional childcare? You could still have book clubs and speeches, but the book would not be a religious book, and the speeches could be about anything apolitical.

UtopiaPunk 3y ago
You're almost describing a public library, and public libraries are, in fact, extremely cool
- 4star3star 3y ago
  Public libraries should have gymnasiums!

agf 3y ago

A lot of the comments here are bemoaning the lack of third places, but don't seem to have read the intro paragraph of the linked Wikipedia article. > churches, cafes, bars, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores, makerspaces, stoops and parks I would also mention that many planned or intentional communities explicitly include a third place -- a community building, clubhouse, country club, student union, retirement home lounges, etc. You'll also find rec centers, YMCAs, JCCs, etc. Don't give up on finding your "third place" just because you don't belong to a church or have a for-profit business in your area that wants you to hang out all day.

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

May 2022, Starbucks: We're creating the digital Third Place (crypto/metaverse nonsense) https://stories.starbucks.com/stories/2022/starbucks-creating-the-digital-third-place/ https://stories.starbucks.com/stories/2022/starbucks-creatin...

keiferski 3y ago

I don’t think true third places really exist in the Western world anymore, at least on a large scale. If you read about the history of coffee houses in Vienna or in Istanbul, they were entirely different from the commercial-product focused coffee shop of today. In such places, the coffee was almost an afterthought, secondary to the social life that went on there. The heyday of the coffee house was the turn of the nineteenth century when writers like Peter Altenberg, Alfred Polgar, Egon Friedell, Karl Kraus, Hermann Broch and Friedrich Torberg made them their preferred place of work and pleasure. Many famous artists, scientists, and politicians of the period such as Arthur Schnitzler, Stefan Zweig, Egon Schiele, Gustav Klimt, Adolf Loos, Theodor Herzl, and Alfred Adler.[15] Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Leon Trotsky and Josip Broz Tito were all living in Vienna in 1913, and they were constant coffee house patrons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house Ottoman era coffeehouses democratized education across all stratums of society. Because individuals from a variety of backgrounds gathered in these coffeehouses, illiterate or low literacy people could sit alongside educated individuals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_coffeehouse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_coffeehouse I’m not sure such places could exist in a world with smartphones and to-go drinks.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dzonga 3y ago
smartphones - it's only consumption of information not filtering of information that would be allowed by discussion. hence why we've so much misinformed citizenry. Thanks for the links

joeman1000 3y ago

I discovered a strange third place last night: a Counter Strike Source server in my country. It had about ten different people talking over voice chat. They were all very frank and cheerful, and it seemed like they congregate there each night. I’m going to start joining regularly.

npteljes 3y ago

World of Warcraft was a third place for me and my friends, and for some of my internet friends as well. The game itself offered low-intensity, low-attention interactions too, like fishing, and we would combine these activities with just hanging out, but online. It's one of the most memorable things for me from my time in that game, and that's surely because of how important this function is socially.