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I'm not buying this at all. People freak out about EV battery fires now (never mind that this is not actually the problem it is made out to be), can you imagin

I'm not buying this at all. People freak out about EV battery fires now (never mind that this is not actually the problem it is made out to be), can you imagine the hazmat situation from a couple of cars carrying who knows how many KG of Anhydrous Ammonia crashing into each other? I mean, you might make the fuel tanks extremely robust (and heavy) but fuel lines etc will still break. Ammonia in the air at 300 PPM will cause SEVERE injuries to anybody in the area not wearing a respirator. And how are you supposed to fuel these cars? Have you seen the PPE you have to wear when handling Anhydrous Ammonia?

369548684892826 3y ago
> People freak out about EV battery fires now (never mind that this is not actually the problem it is made out to be) Looking like quite a problem over in Luton https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073...
- almost_usual 3y ago
  Now imagine when a large earthquake hits a place like San Francisco. Most of the damage from the 1906 quake was caused by fire.
  - sindriava 3y ago
    So what was on fire in 1906? Presumably cars were not nearly as widespread. Has anything relevant changed since then?
    - scrlk 3y ago
      > Within three days, over 30 fires, caused by ruptured gas mains, destroyed approximately 25,000 buildings on 490 city blocks. The fires cost an estimated $350 million at the time (equivalent to $8.08 billion in 2021). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_San_Francisco_earthquake#Fires https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_San_Francisco_earthquake#...
    - almost_usual 3y ago
      > So what was on fire in 1906? The entire city, if you’re asking what started the fire ruptured gas mains caused quite a few. > Has anything relevant changed since then? The city is full of Lithium Ion batteries that can burn uncontrollably when crushed or punctured. These fires cannot be extinguished quickly unless special chemicals are used. SFFD has 43 engines and 19 ladder trucks. https://sf-fire.org/about-sffd-operations https://sf-fire.org/about-sffd-operations SF also has the Auxillary Water Supply System (AWSS) but extinguishing many EV fires will not be practical with only water. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Fire_Department_Auxiliary_Water_Supply_System https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Fire_Departmen...
    - hondo77 3y ago
      Lots. Of. Wood.
- sindriava 3y ago
  I fail to see anything related to EVs in that article.
- cbo100 3y ago
  No mention of EVs in that article, but even if there were, it's not like car fires are a new thing. Maybe better phrasing would be "not actually the new problem it is made out to be"? 1,400 cars burn, not an EV in sight: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-k-parking-garage-fire-destroys-1400-cars/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-k-parking-garage-fire-destroy... and it seems fires at airport car parks are surprisingly common... https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/cars-seen-on-fire-out-23960119 https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manches... https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-fire-image-picture-16363133 https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manches...
- richij 3y ago
  Local fire service is on record saying car zero was a Diesel Range Rover (not even a hybrid).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
isilofi 3y ago
Plus the level of technical protection necessary for refueling. With gasoline, you spill-proof the floor, maybe suck off the fumes, that's it. With ammonia, all connections have to be air-tight. You'll have to vent the tank through a pressure-relief line and then condense the ammonia, because you must not release it into the atmosphere. Ammonia spillage will eat through concrete, many metals and tarmac, so either you get very expensive high-grade stainless steel floors or very expensive ammonia-proof plastic floors. And your ammonia-refueling-station will still stink to high heaven...
Arrath 3y ago
Where did they even come up with the idea to use anhydrous ammonia as a fuel? Did some tired engineer suggest it as a jest at the tail end of an exhausting meeting and, to their horror, it was moved forward? This reminds me of rocket scientists trying out ever nastier and deadlier chemicals in the early days of space exploration.
- scrlk 3y ago
  > This reminds me of rocket scientists trying out ever nastier and deadlier chemicals in the early days of space exploration. An engineer at Toyota must be a big fan of John Clark's "Ignition!", or Derek Lowe's "Things I Won't Work With" series.
- brohee 3y ago
  If you dismiss hydrogen as fuel made from renewable electricity, and frankly you should on density and safety basis, the two most practical options are methane and ammonia. Ammonia got an easy electrity to fuel process, easier than methane that starts with hydrogen. Ammonia is kinda nasty but used plenty (for example in cooling) without a terrible safety record. Not sure that safety is a better argument against it than the lack of distribution network. I think ammonia will find its niche in shipping, but I just can't see it on the road.
  - FooBarBizBazz 3y ago
    Yeah, I'll grant that there are problems with ammonia, but I think this parallel quest to come up with synthetic fuels is a good one. A car is just one part of a car-fuel-road system, and if you can move complexity out of the car and into a chemical plant, that might be good -- particularly if that solves the range and recharging issues. Fuel cells are close cousins of batteries anyway. And there are even redox flow batteries that are even more intermediate. The energy density isn't high enough (these things are actually used for static energy storage, with vats the size of buildings), but imagine a "fuel station" that exchanged Vanadium in different oxidation states with a car, or that swapped some hydrocarbon that can store energy like ATP in biology. Heck, including the atmosphere in the system could be ok too (e.g., CO2 capture), so long as everything balances to zero and the thermodynamics work out (even just mixing and unmixing CO2 with oxygen and nitrogen is an expensive trip up and down in entropy though). I'm quite happy for this kind of work to continue. And like you say, people are putting big money towards running container ships on ammonia. It's sure better than bunker oil. And we're also definitely not going to use big batteries. So, good on Toyota. Somebody needs to keep exploring alternatives.
rini17 3y ago
I was thinking perhaps it's ~30% ammonia near-saturated solution in water which is easier to handle. But there's no indication in video, it would need to be dehydrated before burning, lowering efficiency. Also it means getting from over 12 MJ/l down to 4. Compared to gasoline 34 MJ/l. Would need several hundred liters fuel tank to have comparable range.

369548684892826 3y ago

> People freak out about EV battery fires now (never mind that this is not actually the problem it is made out to be) Looking like quite a problem over in Luton https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073...

almost_usual 3y ago
Now imagine when a large earthquake hits a place like San Francisco. Most of the damage from the 1906 quake was caused by fire.
- sindriava 3y ago
  So what was on fire in 1906? Presumably cars were not nearly as widespread. Has anything relevant changed since then?
  - scrlk 3y ago
    > Within three days, over 30 fires, caused by ruptured gas mains, destroyed approximately 25,000 buildings on 490 city blocks. The fires cost an estimated $350 million at the time (equivalent to $8.08 billion in 2021). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_San_Francisco_earthquake#Fires https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_San_Francisco_earthquake#...
  - almost_usual 3y ago
    > So what was on fire in 1906? The entire city, if you’re asking what started the fire ruptured gas mains caused quite a few. > Has anything relevant changed since then? The city is full of Lithium Ion batteries that can burn uncontrollably when crushed or punctured. These fires cannot be extinguished quickly unless special chemicals are used. SFFD has 43 engines and 19 ladder trucks. https://sf-fire.org/about-sffd-operations https://sf-fire.org/about-sffd-operations SF also has the Auxillary Water Supply System (AWSS) but extinguishing many EV fires will not be practical with only water. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Fire_Department_Auxiliary_Water_Supply_System https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Fire_Departmen...
  - hondo77 3y ago
    Lots. Of. Wood.
sindriava 3y ago
I fail to see anything related to EVs in that article.
cbo100 3y ago
No mention of EVs in that article, but even if there were, it's not like car fires are a new thing. Maybe better phrasing would be "not actually the new problem it is made out to be"? 1,400 cars burn, not an EV in sight: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-k-parking-garage-fire-destroys-1400-cars/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-k-parking-garage-fire-destroy... and it seems fires at airport car parks are surprisingly common... https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/cars-seen-on-fire-out-23960119 https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manches... https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/manchester-airport-fire-image-picture-16363133 https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manches...
richij 3y ago
Local fire service is on record saying car zero was a Diesel Range Rover (not even a hybrid).
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

isilofi 3y ago

Plus the level of technical protection necessary for refueling. With gasoline, you spill-proof the floor, maybe suck off the fumes, that's it. With ammonia, all connections have to be air-tight. You'll have to vent the tank through a pressure-relief line and then condense the ammonia, because you must not release it into the atmosphere. Ammonia spillage will eat through concrete, many metals and tarmac, so either you get very expensive high-grade stainless steel floors or very expensive ammonia-proof plastic floors. And your ammonia-refueling-station will still stink to high heaven...

Arrath 3y ago

Where did they even come up with the idea to use anhydrous ammonia as a fuel? Did some tired engineer suggest it as a jest at the tail end of an exhausting meeting and, to their horror, it was moved forward? This reminds me of rocket scientists trying out ever nastier and deadlier chemicals in the early days of space exploration.

scrlk 3y ago
> This reminds me of rocket scientists trying out ever nastier and deadlier chemicals in the early days of space exploration. An engineer at Toyota must be a big fan of John Clark's "Ignition!", or Derek Lowe's "Things I Won't Work With" series.
brohee 3y ago
If you dismiss hydrogen as fuel made from renewable electricity, and frankly you should on density and safety basis, the two most practical options are methane and ammonia. Ammonia got an easy electrity to fuel process, easier than methane that starts with hydrogen. Ammonia is kinda nasty but used plenty (for example in cooling) without a terrible safety record. Not sure that safety is a better argument against it than the lack of distribution network. I think ammonia will find its niche in shipping, but I just can't see it on the road.
- FooBarBizBazz 3y ago
  Yeah, I'll grant that there are problems with ammonia, but I think this parallel quest to come up with synthetic fuels is a good one. A car is just one part of a car-fuel-road system, and if you can move complexity out of the car and into a chemical plant, that might be good -- particularly if that solves the range and recharging issues. Fuel cells are close cousins of batteries anyway. And there are even redox flow batteries that are even more intermediate. The energy density isn't high enough (these things are actually used for static energy storage, with vats the size of buildings), but imagine a "fuel station" that exchanged Vanadium in different oxidation states with a car, or that swapped some hydrocarbon that can store energy like ATP in biology. Heck, including the atmosphere in the system could be ok too (e.g., CO2 capture), so long as everything balances to zero and the thermodynamics work out (even just mixing and unmixing CO2 with oxygen and nitrogen is an expensive trip up and down in entropy though). I'm quite happy for this kind of work to continue. And like you say, people are putting big money towards running container ships on ammonia. It's sure better than bunker oil. And we're also definitely not going to use big batteries. So, good on Toyota. Somebody needs to keep exploring alternatives.

rini17 3y ago

I was thinking perhaps it's ~30% ammonia near-saturated solution in water which is easier to handle. But there's no indication in video, it would need to be dehydrated before burning, lowering efficiency. Also it means getting from over 12 MJ/l down to 4. Compared to gasoline 34 MJ/l. Would need several hundred liters fuel tank to have comparable range.