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I don't blame you for being skeptical, but it isn't just the oil and gas industry. The Japanese government went all-in on hydrogen. https://thediplomat.com/20

by tw04 3y ago

I don't blame you for being skeptical, but it isn't just the oil and gas industry. The Japanese government went all-in on hydrogen. https://thediplomat.com/2023/07/a-look-at-japans-latest-hydrogen-strategy/ https://thediplomat.com/2023/07/a-look-at-japans-latest-hydr...

gmane 3y ago
Sure, and it's by and large viewed as a complete failure[0]. Is your argument that we should repeat that failure? [0] https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/green-tech/a42665011/japan-hydrogen-energy-failure/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/green-tech/a4266501...
- tw04 3y ago
  No? I'm not sure why you jumped to attack me when I was simply providing a counter-point to your claim that it's all "oil and gas". I drive an EV, I'm quite happy with it. As to the article: they fail to mention that Japan hasn't even begun to throw in the towel. The newest CEO of Toyota is doubling down on hydrogen powered vehicles. https://www.autonews.com/mobility-report/toyotas-bold-us-plans-next-gen-hydrogen-fuel-cell-systems https://www.autonews.com/mobility-report/toyotas-bold-us-pla...
  - appleiigs 3y ago
    Also, it's not a complete failure according to the article he mentions "The 20-page report doesn’t argue for hydrogen’s complete removal from the energy mix. In fact, REI argues that hydrogen is vital for industries where decarbonization is particularly tricky (think: aviation, shipping, and steelmaking). However, to use hydrogen in place of electrification via other renewable sources is a mistake, REI says."
  - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
    Japan has little traditional fossil fuels, but they were making a lot of noise about exploiting the methane hydrate in their seas: > Methane hydrate is confirmed to exist abundantly in the sea near Japan and is expected to become one of the domestic energy resources of the future https://www.japex.co.jp/en/technology/research/mh/ https://www.japex.co.jp/en/technology/research/mh/ So in this case, they're really just a subset of the "oil and gass industry" boosting hydrogen vehicles.
    - fomine3 3y ago
      It has been just a dream for a long time.
elihu 3y ago
I think that may be due to pressure from their automotive industry, who for whatever reason are very resistant to making battery electric cars.
- alexfromapex 3y ago
  It's because batteries are expensive to produce, maintain, and are not as environmentally friendly as going from solar directly to hydrogen via electrolysis. There's more parity for existing fossil fuel engine use cases with hydrogen as well.
theshrike79 3y ago
Japan is clinging to hydrogen like a drowning man to driftwood. About 80% of Japan's energy is imported coal and natural gas. Their electric grid is a bonkers mix of 50Hz and 60Hz single-phase. Hydrogen is the only viable solution for them and even that's not going too well despite lofty goals. They can't build the tech and infrastructure alone and the rest of the world just isn't as enthusiastic on H2.
- jbm 3y ago
  The 50Hz and 60Hz is an accident of history and neatly splits the country in half. It's not a problem.
  - VBprogrammer 3y ago
    Their domestic voltage is also 100v. I've never thought about it before but it does seem like that might pose some challenges in electrifying their road transportation. 240v is considerably more useful when you are trying to suck down 7kw or more.
    - jbm 3y ago
      Now that you mention it, the electric connection in my home in Tokyo was much worse than the one I have in Calgary. They might have connections of 60 amps [1] or less where I lived (whereas my home in Calgary has a 100 amp connection which can be upgraded to 200 if I paid for it) [1] Found this here (https://www4.tepco.co.jp/en/customer/guide/moving-e.html https://www4.tepco.co.jp/en/customer/guide/moving-e.html), I don't recall what exactly it was where I lived.
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    It is a problem, because there's limited capacity to move electricity between the systems. You can just plug them together, they have essentially two separate grids.
    - earthboundkid 3y ago

by tw04 3y ago

gmane 3y ago

Sure, and it's by and large viewed as a complete failure[0]. Is your argument that we should repeat that failure? [0] https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/green-tech/a42665011/japan-hydrogen-energy-failure/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/green-tech/a4266501...

tw04 3y ago
No? I'm not sure why you jumped to attack me when I was simply providing a counter-point to your claim that it's all "oil and gas". I drive an EV, I'm quite happy with it. As to the article: they fail to mention that Japan hasn't even begun to throw in the towel. The newest CEO of Toyota is doubling down on hydrogen powered vehicles. https://www.autonews.com/mobility-report/toyotas-bold-us-plans-next-gen-hydrogen-fuel-cell-systems https://www.autonews.com/mobility-report/toyotas-bold-us-pla...
- appleiigs 3y ago
  Also, it's not a complete failure according to the article he mentions "The 20-page report doesn’t argue for hydrogen’s complete removal from the energy mix. In fact, REI argues that hydrogen is vital for industries where decarbonization is particularly tricky (think: aviation, shipping, and steelmaking). However, to use hydrogen in place of electrification via other renewable sources is a mistake, REI says."
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  Japan has little traditional fossil fuels, but they were making a lot of noise about exploiting the methane hydrate in their seas: > Methane hydrate is confirmed to exist abundantly in the sea near Japan and is expected to become one of the domestic energy resources of the future https://www.japex.co.jp/en/technology/research/mh/ https://www.japex.co.jp/en/technology/research/mh/ So in this case, they're really just a subset of the "oil and gass industry" boosting hydrogen vehicles.
  - fomine3 3y ago
    It has been just a dream for a long time.

elihu 3y ago

I think that may be due to pressure from their automotive industry, who for whatever reason are very resistant to making battery electric cars.

alexfromapex 3y ago
It's because batteries are expensive to produce, maintain, and are not as environmentally friendly as going from solar directly to hydrogen via electrolysis. There's more parity for existing fossil fuel engine use cases with hydrogen as well.

theshrike79 3y ago

Japan is clinging to hydrogen like a drowning man to driftwood. About 80% of Japan's energy is imported coal and natural gas. Their electric grid is a bonkers mix of 50Hz and 60Hz single-phase. Hydrogen is the only viable solution for them and even that's not going too well despite lofty goals. They can't build the tech and infrastructure alone and the rest of the world just isn't as enthusiastic on H2.

jbm 3y ago
The 50Hz and 60Hz is an accident of history and neatly splits the country in half. It's not a problem.
- VBprogrammer 3y ago
  Their domestic voltage is also 100v. I've never thought about it before but it does seem like that might pose some challenges in electrifying their road transportation. 240v is considerably more useful when you are trying to suck down 7kw or more.
  - jbm 3y ago
    Now that you mention it, the electric connection in my home in Tokyo was much worse than the one I have in Calgary. They might have connections of 60 amps [1] or less where I lived (whereas my home in Calgary has a 100 amp connection which can be upgraded to 200 if I paid for it) [1] Found this here (https://www4.tepco.co.jp/en/customer/guide/moving-e.html https://www4.tepco.co.jp/en/customer/guide/moving-e.html), I don't recall what exactly it was where I lived.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  It is a problem, because there's limited capacity to move electricity between the systems. You can just plug them together, they have essentially two separate grids.
  - earthboundkid 3y ago