3 ms·

It will be interesting to see how it compares to modern groups of people. I don't think having ancestors in a place 1700+ years ago gives you defacto claim to o

It will be interesting to see how it compares to modern groups of people. I don't think having ancestors in a place 1700+ years ago gives you defacto claim to ownership either way though.

jqpabc123 3y ago
[flagged]
- wslh 3y ago
  Please keep the discussion civil. The findings and the future publication shows a great archeology achievement.
- lo_zamoyski 3y ago
  With the abrogation of the Mosaic covenant, I am not sure what the status of the Promised Land is. EDIT: Correction, the Promised Land is part of the Abrahamic covenant.
  - aradox66 3y ago
    I'm curious which theological/mythical abrogation you're referring to! Rabbinic tradition generally considers covenant regarding living on the land indefinitely suspended since the 73 CE exile began. Modern religious Jewish Zionist movements claim that suspension is validly terminated and covenant renewed in the act of reclaiming the land by force, mostly motivated by a post-Holocaust reassessment of the waiting-for-moshiach strategy. Contemporary Christian Evangelicals understand Jewish relocation to the land to be a necessary prerequisite for the Rapture. IDK much about the background or history there.
    - whatshisface 3y ago
      Having read revelation myself, the reconstruction of the temple in Jerusalem is a technical prerequisite for the antichrist, because it said he would desecrate the temple, being a prophecy about a nasty dude. If any Christians out there want to deliberately create the conditions for the antichrist to desecrate the temple so that the rapture can happen sooner and the world can end, to be honest, that is crazy even within a system of faith. On those grounds I don't believe that it could possibly be a mainstream belief.
      - aradox66 3y ago
        It is bizarre! Yet it is quite mainstream. See Christians United for Israel, the largest Zionist lobby in the USA with around 1 million members. Their founder is quite explicit about this theological motivation.
        whatshisface 3y ago
        CUFI's website says it has ten million members. I can't find any mention of hastening the second coming - do you have a reference for that?
        aradox66 3y ago
        Here's an article discussing this: https://inthesetimes.com/article/christians-united-for-israel-zionism-john-hagee-donald-trump-israel-palestine-iran https://inthesetimes.com/article/christians-united-for-israe... There are many YouTube videos of CUFI founder John Hagee giving sermons on this theology, sometimes going so far as praising the Hitler as "God's instrument" for moving Zionism forward https://www.huffpost.com/entry/hagee-still-sells-controv_b_107545 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/hagee-still-sells-controv_b_1...
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
It matters little what science or anthropology generally says -- nationalist/nativist ideology pretty much always fits the facts to the desired outcome, and ignores those that can't be made to do so. (From any "side") In the end, "legitimacy" of a group claiming exclusive access to a piece of land comes down to might-makes-right. The other stuff is usually window dressing.
- aksss 3y ago
  > the other stuff is usually window dressing Makes for good grievance politics though, eh?
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    I'm on the side of the actually-aggrieved.
    - nostrebored 3y ago
      And so is everyone else. It just turns out that who is actually aggrieved isn’t so easy to ascertain.
      - whatshisface 3y ago
        It would be easier if the lines demarcating groups were drawn according to their behavior and not according to their cultural group. For example, criminals and innocents are a pair of groups with obvious perpetrator-victim relationships, while "likes star trek" and "does not like star trek," a way to group the exact same set of individuals, is impossible to pick a side on. Could you imagine how impossible it would be to have a peaceful society if people said things like, "a Trekkie stole the tape deck out of my car?" Sadly there are places in the world, a lot of them in Africa, where nobody can look beyond their superficial traits to classify criminals apart from their victims.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

It will be interesting to see how it compares to modern groups of people. I don't think having ancestors in a place 1700+ years ago gives you defacto claim to ownership either way though.

jqpabc123 3y ago

[flagged]

wslh 3y ago
Please keep the discussion civil. The findings and the future publication shows a great archeology achievement.
lo_zamoyski 3y ago
With the abrogation of the Mosaic covenant, I am not sure what the status of the Promised Land is. EDIT: Correction, the Promised Land is part of the Abrahamic covenant.
- aradox66 3y ago
  I'm curious which theological/mythical abrogation you're referring to! Rabbinic tradition generally considers covenant regarding living on the land indefinitely suspended since the 73 CE exile began. Modern religious Jewish Zionist movements claim that suspension is validly terminated and covenant renewed in the act of reclaiming the land by force, mostly motivated by a post-Holocaust reassessment of the waiting-for-moshiach strategy. Contemporary Christian Evangelicals understand Jewish relocation to the land to be a necessary prerequisite for the Rapture. IDK much about the background or history there.
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    Having read revelation myself, the reconstruction of the temple in Jerusalem is a technical prerequisite for the antichrist, because it said he would desecrate the temple, being a prophecy about a nasty dude. If any Christians out there want to deliberately create the conditions for the antichrist to desecrate the temple so that the rapture can happen sooner and the world can end, to be honest, that is crazy even within a system of faith. On those grounds I don't believe that it could possibly be a mainstream belief.
    - aradox66 3y ago
      It is bizarre! Yet it is quite mainstream. See Christians United for Israel, the largest Zionist lobby in the USA with around 1 million members. Their founder is quite explicit about this theological motivation.
      - whatshisface 3y ago
        CUFI's website says it has ten million members. I can't find any mention of hastening the second coming - do you have a reference for that?
        aradox66 3y ago
        Here's an article discussing this: https://inthesetimes.com/article/christians-united-for-israel-zionism-john-hagee-donald-trump-israel-palestine-iran https://inthesetimes.com/article/christians-united-for-israe... There are many YouTube videos of CUFI founder John Hagee giving sermons on this theology, sometimes going so far as praising the Hitler as "God's instrument" for moving Zionism forward https://www.huffpost.com/entry/hagee-still-sells-controv_b_107545 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/hagee-still-sells-controv_b_1...
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

It matters little what science or anthropology generally says -- nationalist/nativist ideology pretty much always fits the facts to the desired outcome, and ignores those that can't be made to do so. (From any "side") In the end, "legitimacy" of a group claiming exclusive access to a piece of land comes down to might-makes-right. The other stuff is usually window dressing.

aksss 3y ago
> the other stuff is usually window dressing Makes for good grievance politics though, eh?
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  I'm on the side of the actually-aggrieved.
  - nostrebored 3y ago
    And so is everyone else. It just turns out that who is actually aggrieved isn’t so easy to ascertain.
    - whatshisface 3y ago
      It would be easier if the lines demarcating groups were drawn according to their behavior and not according to their cultural group. For example, criminals and innocents are a pair of groups with obvious perpetrator-victim relationships, while "likes star trek" and "does not like star trek," a way to group the exact same set of individuals, is impossible to pick a side on. Could you imagine how impossible it would be to have a peaceful society if people said things like, "a Trekkie stole the tape deck out of my car?" Sadly there are places in the world, a lot of them in Africa, where nobody can look beyond their superficial traits to classify criminals apart from their victims.

deleted 3y ago

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