6 ms·

I'm really disappointed with all the LED lights I tried (except one brand that doesn't exist anymore). Led lights were supposed to last 10 years at 8h per day.

I'm really disappointed with all the LED lights I tried (except one brand that doesn't exist anymore). Led lights were supposed to last 10 years at 8h per day. Initially they were expensive, but it was possible to get LEDs of good quality. 7 years ago when I was building my house I bought 100 gu10 7W 550 lumen cool white "halogen style" 240V led lights. In these 7 years I replaced around 16. Many of these lights are used 16+ h/day. I'm very happy with them. Unfortunately the brand dissappeared (it was a reseller brand). Since then ever single LED I bought failed with a year or two. Big outdoor led floodlights 25W,50W and few 100W. Every single one fails in a couple of months. They're not even used that much as they have PIRs, maybe they are on 20min per day. Then there are E17 lights I bought for a small workshop (12 of them). None lasted over 6 months (used few hours per week in an unheated workshop). I'm not even buying the cheapest LEDs. It's the same regardless if I pay for "premium" or the cheapest. I have so many broken LEDs I started fixing them. I have a hot air soldering station and a pcb heating tool. They always fail the same way. One of the LEDs is burned. Why? Because they are driven too hard that's why. If they were driven with 10% less power they would have a chance to last.

nunez 3y ago
Interesting. Some of our TP-Link/Kasa bulbs are going on seven years of operation. Shits have been bulletproof for us.
lostlogin 3y ago
I wonder if the vendors or suppliers know?
- _ea1k 3y ago
  It seems like a lemon market: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons I'm sure they know.
- Roark66 3y ago
  For sure they do. I spoke about these floodlights with the people in the shop I bought them at and they had a representative of the supplier come every month in a van to collect all the dead ones and give them new ones. I can't understand how they could sell them at such low price, replace 40%, and still make a profit. Perhaps they fix them themselves?
flutas 3y ago
You can modify the resistors on the PCB manually to run them cooler and last longer. It's not ideal but one solution.
- bombela 3y ago
  I noticed that virtually all LEDs driver resistors are two vastly different values, in parallel. Such that if you snip off the correct one, you are left with a slightly lower output light, that consumes half the power and last many time longer. It's like a secret cheat code for people in the know. It's almost a conspiracy. Just cut off the highest value resistor with a pair of snips.
  - Roark66 3y ago
    This is a really good tip. Although ripping them apart is the last thing I'd like to do when I buy a new set of lights I might have to start doing that.
_ea1k 3y ago
What is the common failure mode and how are you fixing them?
- Roark66 3y ago
  Virtually all of them fail the same way. One(or more) of the individual LED diodes fail open. They are usually discolored as if they burned. I'm fixing them by replacing the diodes that failed (I desoldering them from other lights that failed). I always buy cool white Led lights and all of them use 1W diodes it seems (at least I think they're 1W, there is no writing on them).
zkms 3y ago
Have you tried some from Waveform Lighting? I have some of their bulbs (none of which has broken yet) and I selected them because of the low blue light and zero flicker. (No relationship with them beyond being a satisfied customer). https://www.waveformlighting.com/ https://www.waveformlighting.com/
- hettygreen 3y ago
  I just purchased like $1500 worth of linear LED's from these guys for my workshop. I'm really sensitive to LED flicker and these were one of the only websites I found that specifically talked about flicker and claimed their LED's don't do it. Does anyone else notice when LED's flicker at 60hz? I was in a restaurant last week that had some of those LED's made to look like old time lights and the flicker in the room was terrible. If anyone moved their hand or the menu, you could see the strobe effect very easily.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ipython 3y ago
    I do. Fortunately my house (full of led lighting) only has one place with visible flicker: my vent hood. Strangely enough I’m the only one in my family who notices the flicker, but it annoys me whenever anyone uses those lights while cooking.
- Roark66 3y ago
  I haven't. I should've probably mentioned I'm in Europe. That most likely excludes them for me. I've had a look at their page, they don't have the fittings I get (gu10, E27 - probably these are not used in the US) and no European resellers as far as I can find (and no 4500K option, but that's a minor thing).
jerlam 3y ago
> If they were driven with 10% less power they would have a chance to last. You are describing Dubai LEDs, which are driven lower, last longer, but are dimmer: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/ https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-li... Last mention on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35003411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35003411
Jnr 3y ago
I bought higher CRI LEDs from IKEA about 4 years ago when I moved into my apartment, they are all still working. But those LEDs are not sold anymore, hopefully the newer ones are as decent.
pbhjpbhj 3y ago
Keep your receipt details and return to seller (if in UK) if they don't meet the stated lifetime. AFAIK there are no time limits to Consumer Rights Act returns beyond 'expected product lifetime'.
- e2le 3y ago
  Although good that it's possible to get a free replacement, I suspect the broken bulb will still end up in a landfill or polluting some place in the world with more micro plastics. It's a real shame when manufacturers would rather make a worse product and pocket the few cents difference, environment be dammed.
  - pbhjpbhj 3y ago
    One of the big problems with the process is that people don't return things because of the hassle, so the rubbish remains profitable, meaning the flow to landfill doesn't stop. You can attempt to dictate a better situation, but that doesn't always go well ...
- Roark66 3y ago
  This is the same in Poland (the country I moved to), but who can find receipts for light bulbs bought 6 months ago... I do keep them now (especially for more expensive ones like these Led floodlights). In fact that's how I got through so many of them. I bought them, a couple failed few months later, I'd take them back to the shop, they would just give me new ones in exchange. I'd install these, and they would break again in few months, rinse and repeat. I got so tired of having to swap them up high on a ladder I started fixing them myself and regulating the power supply for lower power (they have a brick style PSU).
m3047 3y ago
Conspiracy! No really, there was a conspiracy to fix the life expectancy of tungsten bulbs. Nobody would be doing that here, of course. /s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel
- TaylorAlexander 3y ago
  Honestly that story is really not as simple as people suggest it is. There is a tradeoff between bulb life and brightness and standardization may have been good for the industry. Technology Connections does a thoughtful deep dive in to this story in this recent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb7Bs98KmnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb7Bs98KmnY
adrian_b 3y ago
Obviously it is possible to design well or to design badly the LED bulbs. Those which fail are likely to fail due to inadequate cooling. With good cooling even large currents cannot damage the LEDs. As long as the temperature of the LED is limited there is no need to drive it less. I have bought 8 years ago about two dozen LED lamps of 1500 lumen (equivalent to 100 W incandescent lamps) and of 4000 K color temperature (slightly yellowish white, but not yellow like those that imitate incandescent lamps), which were made by Philips and which have the same size as traditional incandescent bulbs. All of those still work flawlessly, while consuming only a little more than half of the power consumed by the compact fluorescent lamps replaced by them. I do not doubt your experience, but it is possible to choose better LED lamps.
- Roark66 3y ago
  >Those which fail are likely to fail due to inadequate cooling. With good cooling even large currents cannot damage the LEDs. As long as the temperature of the LED is limited there is no need to drive it less. This seems like a logical conclusion considering lower power extends their life and the diodes that fail are usually discolored (as if they overheated). However, I'm not entirely sure it is as simple as inadequate cooling. All my high power LED floodlights are installed outdoors. I had 3 failures in the middle of winter when outside temperatures are way below zero (I remember these especially well, because climbing a tall ladder in freezing -20C wind is not something you forget easily). My theory is that they initially fail short that's why they appear burned. Also better cooling definitely extends their life, but it is not the only factor. The LED floodlights I mentioned were all housed in flat cast aluminum casings with find. The pcb is made of aluminium (with a very thin white insulating layer and copper traces on top). There is thermal paste between the back of the pcb that is raw aluminium and the case. I can't imagine a more favourable cooling solution. And still these floodlights are amongst the worst LED experiences I had. I tried all sellers available that didetry to charge >6x the price. >I do not doubt your experience, but it is possible to choose better LED lamps Perhaps it is location dependent. The lights I had a good experience with were purchased in the UK, but I've since moved to Poland. I'm happy to order from other countries within the EU (I even wanted to get the same LEDs from the UK again, but they don't sell them anymore). The brands I see around here are either noname/picked up from thin air, kobi, samsung,philips or sometimes Osram. I have to admit I haven't got much experience with Philips or Osram. All the others are the same (including Samsung Pro). I would've bought more of the Philips/Osram lights, but none of my local stores carry them in cool white, ordering one or two online seems a waste of the shipping while I'm not ordering 20 without checking them out first... (if someone says "Philips is great" I'll get a 10 pack) Also I noticed people who like warm rather than cool light seem to have a better experience overall. Two of the best LEDs I have are warm, and they look like the famous Philips Dubai bupbs(I couldn't get any cool whites with the right fitting). They have been living outside for last 7 years, hooked up to a PIR next to a cat's food&water so they are activated a lot. I've replaced the PIR sensors, but the lights are still fine. Again, these were purchased years ago. If anyone knows any good brands available in Europe, please mention them.
mft_ 3y ago
Very interesting. An acquaintence was describing something similar - a frustratingly high rate of early failures across various bulb types usually meant to last 10-15 years. I have exclusively IKEA smart bulbs where the right fitment is available, plus a motley array of other bulbs and LED lamps (often cheapish Chinese brands resold on Amazon) where IKEA doesn't offer something suitable, and I've not had a single failure in ~5 years. Such a disparity is difficult to explain.
andersrs 3y ago
It's probably because they're so small, integrated and installed in confined insulated spaces. My house is 5 years old and I've never had an LED light break. The hardware I have is split into the LEDs (bigger ones with a heat sink) and the AC/DC drivers which are installed above the ceiling insulation or in a wall cavity for wall lights. The old school gu10 bulbs are notorious for burning out as well I used to go through about 4 a year just in a kitchen rangehood.

nunez 3y ago

Interesting. Some of our TP-Link/Kasa bulbs are going on seven years of operation. Shits have been bulletproof for us.

lostlogin 3y ago

I wonder if the vendors or suppliers know?

_ea1k 3y ago
It seems like a lemon market: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons I'm sure they know.
Roark66 3y ago
For sure they do. I spoke about these floodlights with the people in the shop I bought them at and they had a representative of the supplier come every month in a van to collect all the dead ones and give them new ones. I can't understand how they could sell them at such low price, replace 40%, and still make a profit. Perhaps they fix them themselves?

flutas 3y ago

You can modify the resistors on the PCB manually to run them cooler and last longer. It's not ideal but one solution.

bombela 3y ago
I noticed that virtually all LEDs driver resistors are two vastly different values, in parallel. Such that if you snip off the correct one, you are left with a slightly lower output light, that consumes half the power and last many time longer. It's like a secret cheat code for people in the know. It's almost a conspiracy. Just cut off the highest value resistor with a pair of snips.
- Roark66 3y ago
  This is a really good tip. Although ripping them apart is the last thing I'd like to do when I buy a new set of lights I might have to start doing that.

_ea1k 3y ago

What is the common failure mode and how are you fixing them?

Roark66 3y ago
Virtually all of them fail the same way. One(or more) of the individual LED diodes fail open. They are usually discolored as if they burned. I'm fixing them by replacing the diodes that failed (I desoldering them from other lights that failed). I always buy cool white Led lights and all of them use 1W diodes it seems (at least I think they're 1W, there is no writing on them).

zkms 3y ago

Have you tried some from Waveform Lighting? I have some of their bulbs (none of which has broken yet) and I selected them because of the low blue light and zero flicker. (No relationship with them beyond being a satisfied customer). https://www.waveformlighting.com/ https://www.waveformlighting.com/

hettygreen 3y ago
I just purchased like $1500 worth of linear LED's from these guys for my workshop. I'm really sensitive to LED flicker and these were one of the only websites I found that specifically talked about flicker and claimed their LED's don't do it. Does anyone else notice when LED's flicker at 60hz? I was in a restaurant last week that had some of those LED's made to look like old time lights and the flicker in the room was terrible. If anyone moved their hand or the menu, you could see the strobe effect very easily.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ipython 3y ago
  I do. Fortunately my house (full of led lighting) only has one place with visible flicker: my vent hood. Strangely enough I’m the only one in my family who notices the flicker, but it annoys me whenever anyone uses those lights while cooking.
Roark66 3y ago
I haven't. I should've probably mentioned I'm in Europe. That most likely excludes them for me. I've had a look at their page, they don't have the fittings I get (gu10, E27 - probably these are not used in the US) and no European resellers as far as I can find (and no 4500K option, but that's a minor thing).

jerlam 3y ago

> If they were driven with 10% less power they would have a chance to last. You are describing Dubai LEDs, which are driven lower, last longer, but are dimmer: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/ https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-li... Last mention on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35003411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35003411

Jnr 3y ago

I bought higher CRI LEDs from IKEA about 4 years ago when I moved into my apartment, they are all still working. But those LEDs are not sold anymore, hopefully the newer ones are as decent.

pbhjpbhj 3y ago

Keep your receipt details and return to seller (if in UK) if they don't meet the stated lifetime. AFAIK there are no time limits to Consumer Rights Act returns beyond 'expected product lifetime'.

e2le 3y ago
Although good that it's possible to get a free replacement, I suspect the broken bulb will still end up in a landfill or polluting some place in the world with more micro plastics. It's a real shame when manufacturers would rather make a worse product and pocket the few cents difference, environment be dammed.
- pbhjpbhj 3y ago
  One of the big problems with the process is that people don't return things because of the hassle, so the rubbish remains profitable, meaning the flow to landfill doesn't stop. You can attempt to dictate a better situation, but that doesn't always go well ...
Roark66 3y ago
This is the same in Poland (the country I moved to), but who can find receipts for light bulbs bought 6 months ago... I do keep them now (especially for more expensive ones like these Led floodlights). In fact that's how I got through so many of them. I bought them, a couple failed few months later, I'd take them back to the shop, they would just give me new ones in exchange. I'd install these, and they would break again in few months, rinse and repeat. I got so tired of having to swap them up high on a ladder I started fixing them myself and regulating the power supply for lower power (they have a brick style PSU).

m3047 3y ago

Conspiracy! No really, there was a conspiracy to fix the life expectancy of tungsten bulbs. Nobody would be doing that here, of course. /s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

TaylorAlexander 3y ago
Honestly that story is really not as simple as people suggest it is. There is a tradeoff between bulb life and brightness and standardization may have been good for the industry. Technology Connections does a thoughtful deep dive in to this story in this recent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb7Bs98KmnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb7Bs98KmnY

adrian_b 3y ago

Obviously it is possible to design well or to design badly the LED bulbs. Those which fail are likely to fail due to inadequate cooling. With good cooling even large currents cannot damage the LEDs. As long as the temperature of the LED is limited there is no need to drive it less. I have bought 8 years ago about two dozen LED lamps of 1500 lumen (equivalent to 100 W incandescent lamps) and of 4000 K color temperature (slightly yellowish white, but not yellow like those that imitate incandescent lamps), which were made by Philips and which have the same size as traditional incandescent bulbs. All of those still work flawlessly, while consuming only a little more than half of the power consumed by the compact fluorescent lamps replaced by them. I do not doubt your experience, but it is possible to choose better LED lamps.

Roark66 3y ago
>Those which fail are likely to fail due to inadequate cooling. With good cooling even large currents cannot damage the LEDs. As long as the temperature of the LED is limited there is no need to drive it less. This seems like a logical conclusion considering lower power extends their life and the diodes that fail are usually discolored (as if they overheated). However, I'm not entirely sure it is as simple as inadequate cooling. All my high power LED floodlights are installed outdoors. I had 3 failures in the middle of winter when outside temperatures are way below zero (I remember these especially well, because climbing a tall ladder in freezing -20C wind is not something you forget easily). My theory is that they initially fail short that's why they appear burned. Also better cooling definitely extends their life, but it is not the only factor. The LED floodlights I mentioned were all housed in flat cast aluminum casings with find. The pcb is made of aluminium (with a very thin white insulating layer and copper traces on top). There is thermal paste between the back of the pcb that is raw aluminium and the case. I can't imagine a more favourable cooling solution. And still these floodlights are amongst the worst LED experiences I had. I tried all sellers available that didetry to charge >6x the price. >I do not doubt your experience, but it is possible to choose better LED lamps Perhaps it is location dependent. The lights I had a good experience with were purchased in the UK, but I've since moved to Poland. I'm happy to order from other countries within the EU (I even wanted to get the same LEDs from the UK again, but they don't sell them anymore). The brands I see around here are either noname/picked up from thin air, kobi, samsung,philips or sometimes Osram. I have to admit I haven't got much experience with Philips or Osram. All the others are the same (including Samsung Pro). I would've bought more of the Philips/Osram lights, but none of my local stores carry them in cool white, ordering one or two online seems a waste of the shipping while I'm not ordering 20 without checking them out first... (if someone says "Philips is great" I'll get a 10 pack) Also I noticed people who like warm rather than cool light seem to have a better experience overall. Two of the best LEDs I have are warm, and they look like the famous Philips Dubai bupbs(I couldn't get any cool whites with the right fitting). They have been living outside for last 7 years, hooked up to a PIR next to a cat's food&water so they are activated a lot. I've replaced the PIR sensors, but the lights are still fine. Again, these were purchased years ago. If anyone knows any good brands available in Europe, please mention them.

mft_ 3y ago

Very interesting. An acquaintence was describing something similar - a frustratingly high rate of early failures across various bulb types usually meant to last 10-15 years. I have exclusively IKEA smart bulbs where the right fitment is available, plus a motley array of other bulbs and LED lamps (often cheapish Chinese brands resold on Amazon) where IKEA doesn't offer something suitable, and I've not had a single failure in ~5 years. Such a disparity is difficult to explain.

andersrs 3y ago

It's probably because they're so small, integrated and installed in confined insulated spaces. My house is 5 years old and I've never had an LED light break. The hardware I have is split into the LEDs (bigger ones with a heat sink) and the AC/DC drivers which are installed above the ceiling insulation or in a wall cavity for wall lights. The old school gu10 bulbs are notorious for burning out as well I used to go through about 4 a year just in a kitchen rangehood.