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Dear Prospective PhD Student, Pay careful attention to the optics of this advice. It is addressing how you can best serve your PI. Your goals and aspirations

Dear Prospective PhD Student, Pay careful attention to the optics of this advice. It is addressing how you can best serve your PI. Your goals and aspirations are not addressed. It is advice on how to land a job, but does not address why you should want the job, or if it is a good fit for you. Perhaps you are a good fit for the academic life. But seek out more advice on what the job of Prospective PhD Student is. Seek out more advice on the job market of jobs that require a PhD. If you are thinking of working in the university setting, there may be a lot fewer tenure track jobs, with a lot more applicants than you might imagine, available that you. EDIT: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-03394-0 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-03394-0

ramraj07 3y ago
The question then becomes who do you even trust for advice? I always said never ask a first or second year PhD student lol.
- nolamark 3y ago
  You trust no one, and, at the same time, everyone. Determining what you are getting yourself into, based on data, not your imagination of the jobs based upon your undergrad experience, should be your first research project. If you aren't up for doing that research, evaluating the data you gather, and seeing the bias in the data, a research position probably not a good fit.
- airstrike 3y ago
  Only take advice from people with whom you'd be willing to switch places.
- Hermitian909 3y ago
  IMO you want to distinguish between advice that is tactical and short term or strategic and long term. The best tactical advice tends to from people who were recently in a very similar position as you, had had approximately the same goal you have, and either achieved the goal or failed. You want a sample of both successes and failures. The less recent, the less useful the advice. The best strategic advice tends to be from people who have accomplished things you want to accomplish, regardless of time distance. Their tactical advice is less useful (because it is often dated), but the strategic advice tends to be better. You again need a large sample size to filter out noise.
chriskanan 3y ago
It should be a mutually beneficial relationship. That said, I run into far too many PhD students who want to join my lab who cannot answer the question "Why do you want a PhD?" I work in AI, so there is enormous opportunity inside and outside of academia currently (was not true when I finished my PhD, when it was the least popular area of CS), but I'm very upfront with students about how challenging it is to get a tenure-track job. That said, for those who want that, I help them make plans and set goals to achieve that objective, which means having a much stronger CV by the time they graduate than for those aiming for industry. Many may disagree in practice, but I see my primary job as creating strong scientists and helping them achieve their career objectives. But, I won't take PhD students if their goals would not greatly benefit from having a PhD. I do think too few academics are upfront with students about how challenging it is to get a tenure track position and what's needed to pull that off.
- hsavit1 3y ago
  why shouldn't someone be allowed to get a phd for their own pleasure? You are gatekeeping
  - nradov 3y ago
    Each professor can only take on a small number of PhD students. They have to gatekeep on some basis.
  - techbro92 3y ago
    It’s foolish to spend 5-6 years getting paid subsistence wages because you wanted a PhD for fun. Also, phds are not really fun. Grad school is much more miserable than pleasurable.
    - nolamark 3y ago
      Strangely my path both supports and counters your statement. Likely in no way typical. But given the prevalence of negative comments regarding grad school in response to this article I want to say: I thought getting my PhD was fun and a great time in my life. (looking back with 30 years of hindsight) Start to end my PhD was a roughly ten year period. Round 1: (in support of "no fun") Had a great undergrad experience (thank you Harvey Mudd). Entered grad school with goal of teaching at an undergrad only liberal art college. Frequently read Chronicle of Higher Education so I knew there was an over supply of PhD to tenure track positions at the time, but I was special, so no problem. Passed qualifying exams. Received great advise and directed away from my area of interest because it was already full of tenured faculty and was told, correctly, that departments were so full up in that area and it would be near impossible to get a tenure track position in the sub area of CS. I started thesis, published, even had expanded version of a paper invited for inclusion in book. I was playing by the rules, but seeing how the sausage was made, I was ground down and quit Intermission: (An aside, I was always amused as an undergraduate how the janitors would enter classroom and empty trash can during ongoing classes. So my first post drop out job was a version of that). I got a job as sysadmin in the department I had just dropped out of. Got to go to former professors offices to fix their networking problems, change printer paper for them. Then former classmate was starting a company and I got hired by member of my qualifying exam study group to be first hired employee and company he was co-founding. After quitting that job, I was visiting a friend back in Claremont who was busy inventing MIME. Mentioning that I was unemployed, he said HMC Academic computing was looking for new User Support and Education Coordinator, the former one having quit just before school started. Walked me over to Director of Academic Computing's office. Half hour later I had a job. (Not quite janitor, but closest to cross it off bucket list). Being back in the environment rekindled the dream that sent me to grad school in the first place. So I reapplied to grad school Round 2: (not following the rules, but having lot of FUN). The solid advice, one shouldn't pay tuition to go to grad school. Me, I paid tuition out of my own pocket, received no institution support as RA or TA. Basically doing it all wrong. My original advisor, in immeasurable kindness, agreed to again be my thesis supervisor. While providing no financial support, I was still a time sink for her. There were moments of pure joy when I got to be a non conformist grad student (aka pain in the butt). Like when the department secretary sent out a letter to all grad students asking help moving furniture from point A to point B. Instead of being a helpful department servant, I got to fire off an angry letter (reply, faculty include, all of course) saying that I was paying my own tuition and wasn't there to provide free labor. I had fun because I was in control of my time. I had fun cause there where great recreation classes on campus. I had fun cause the local vegetarian cafe was the default punk music venue of the city. I have fun cause I was doing things on my terms, studying in a field that I love. Postscript: Despite odds, got a tenure track position and was assistant professor for 3 year. (Reality was not the same as dream.) After that got another job, again through a (different) member of my qualifying exam study group. Approx 8 year after receiving PhD, I was more or less retired, having easily achieve the financial goal I established as a grad student learning how to enjoying life on a frugal budget.
3abiton 3y ago
Finding a good PI is the real advice.

ramraj07 3y ago

The question then becomes who do you even trust for advice? I always said never ask a first or second year PhD student lol.

nolamark 3y ago
You trust no one, and, at the same time, everyone. Determining what you are getting yourself into, based on data, not your imagination of the jobs based upon your undergrad experience, should be your first research project. If you aren't up for doing that research, evaluating the data you gather, and seeing the bias in the data, a research position probably not a good fit.
airstrike 3y ago
Only take advice from people with whom you'd be willing to switch places.
Hermitian909 3y ago
IMO you want to distinguish between advice that is tactical and short term or strategic and long term. The best tactical advice tends to from people who were recently in a very similar position as you, had had approximately the same goal you have, and either achieved the goal or failed. You want a sample of both successes and failures. The less recent, the less useful the advice. The best strategic advice tends to be from people who have accomplished things you want to accomplish, regardless of time distance. Their tactical advice is less useful (because it is often dated), but the strategic advice tends to be better. You again need a large sample size to filter out noise.

chriskanan 3y ago

It should be a mutually beneficial relationship. That said, I run into far too many PhD students who want to join my lab who cannot answer the question "Why do you want a PhD?" I work in AI, so there is enormous opportunity inside and outside of academia currently (was not true when I finished my PhD, when it was the least popular area of CS), but I'm very upfront with students about how challenging it is to get a tenure-track job. That said, for those who want that, I help them make plans and set goals to achieve that objective, which means having a much stronger CV by the time they graduate than for those aiming for industry. Many may disagree in practice, but I see my primary job as creating strong scientists and helping them achieve their career objectives. But, I won't take PhD students if their goals would not greatly benefit from having a PhD. I do think too few academics are upfront with students about how challenging it is to get a tenure track position and what's needed to pull that off.

hsavit1 3y ago
why shouldn't someone be allowed to get a phd for their own pleasure? You are gatekeeping
- nradov 3y ago
  Each professor can only take on a small number of PhD students. They have to gatekeep on some basis.
- techbro92 3y ago
  It’s foolish to spend 5-6 years getting paid subsistence wages because you wanted a PhD for fun. Also, phds are not really fun. Grad school is much more miserable than pleasurable.
  - nolamark 3y ago
    Strangely my path both supports and counters your statement. Likely in no way typical. But given the prevalence of negative comments regarding grad school in response to this article I want to say: I thought getting my PhD was fun and a great time in my life. (looking back with 30 years of hindsight) Start to end my PhD was a roughly ten year period. Round 1: (in support of "no fun") Had a great undergrad experience (thank you Harvey Mudd). Entered grad school with goal of teaching at an undergrad only liberal art college. Frequently read Chronicle of Higher Education so I knew there was an over supply of PhD to tenure track positions at the time, but I was special, so no problem. Passed qualifying exams. Received great advise and directed away from my area of interest because it was already full of tenured faculty and was told, correctly, that departments were so full up in that area and it would be near impossible to get a tenure track position in the sub area of CS. I started thesis, published, even had expanded version of a paper invited for inclusion in book. I was playing by the rules, but seeing how the sausage was made, I was ground down and quit Intermission: (An aside, I was always amused as an undergraduate how the janitors would enter classroom and empty trash can during ongoing classes. So my first post drop out job was a version of that). I got a job as sysadmin in the department I had just dropped out of. Got to go to former professors offices to fix their networking problems, change printer paper for them. Then former classmate was starting a company and I got hired by member of my qualifying exam study group to be first hired employee and company he was co-founding. After quitting that job, I was visiting a friend back in Claremont who was busy inventing MIME. Mentioning that I was unemployed, he said HMC Academic computing was looking for new User Support and Education Coordinator, the former one having quit just before school started. Walked me over to Director of Academic Computing's office. Half hour later I had a job. (Not quite janitor, but closest to cross it off bucket list). Being back in the environment rekindled the dream that sent me to grad school in the first place. So I reapplied to grad school Round 2: (not following the rules, but having lot of FUN). The solid advice, one shouldn't pay tuition to go to grad school. Me, I paid tuition out of my own pocket, received no institution support as RA or TA. Basically doing it all wrong. My original advisor, in immeasurable kindness, agreed to again be my thesis supervisor. While providing no financial support, I was still a time sink for her. There were moments of pure joy when I got to be a non conformist grad student (aka pain in the butt). Like when the department secretary sent out a letter to all grad students asking help moving furniture from point A to point B. Instead of being a helpful department servant, I got to fire off an angry letter (reply, faculty include, all of course) saying that I was paying my own tuition and wasn't there to provide free labor. I had fun because I was in control of my time. I had fun cause there where great recreation classes on campus. I had fun cause the local vegetarian cafe was the default punk music venue of the city. I have fun cause I was doing things on my terms, studying in a field that I love. Postscript: Despite odds, got a tenure track position and was assistant professor for 3 year. (Reality was not the same as dream.) After that got another job, again through a (different) member of my qualifying exam study group. Approx 8 year after receiving PhD, I was more or less retired, having easily achieve the financial goal I established as a grad student learning how to enjoying life on a frugal budget.

3abiton 3y ago

Finding a good PI is the real advice.