5 ms·

I wish people would understand that "just get up early" simply does not and cannot work for a significant portion of the population (20-50% depending on which s

by jmkd 3y ago

I wish people would understand that "just get up early" simply does not and cannot work for a significant portion of the population (20-50% depending on which study you choose). Therefore it is aggravating advice to constantly receive, from those for whom it worked, to those for whom it won't.

a96 3y ago
"Have you tried not being depressed?" "Thanks, I'm cured."
faeriechangling 3y ago
I suffered from delayed sleep phase syndrome for years and years. Root cause was undiagnosed health issues causing chronic pain and alertness. Once I nailed down the problem all it took from there was a mere complete lifestyle change, once which takes constant discipline to maintain. Which I manage to maintain mostly because lapses in discipline result in me being slapped hard back to reality. I was told to try melatonin so - many - times. I had so many printouts on sleep hygiene handed to me over the years. I was told repeatedly both to wake up early AND to restrict how long I spend in bed. Being told to wake up early was given The idea of doing a differential NEVER occurred to people as my sleep problems were obviously a result of my poor ethics and laziness and could be fixed with nothing more than an attitude adjustment. The point of this all being, is to say I agree with you rather strongly.
- nyanpasu64 3y ago
  Dealing with similar issues myself, what health issues did you discover and what do you do to cope?
xyzelement 3y ago
I find your comment unhelpful. We have no indication that the person being responded to has a hard limitation vs suboptimal habits. Not giving him advice because it might not help someone is the worst because it guarantees that it will not help him.
- jmkd 3y ago
  Fair point, but I find the kind of advice given goes beyond being unhelpful into being actually damaging. It's exasperating at best and makes the 'patient' feel as if no one understands them, or worse that the world is against them. On balance I weigh the damage of that as more negative than the absence of advice that might help.
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    This is where you and I disagree. I find that a chance at tangible improvement is worth having to deal with the risk it cannot be accomplished.
    - 1123581321 3y ago
      As someone who used to think I had unique physiology, I eventually appreciated people who kept suggesting sensible advice with no downsides to try it. Thanks.
    - eska 3y ago
      I used to be depressed and constantly received the same bullshit advice which led me to believe nobody understands me and that I’m incurable and I was about to give up. Please don’t be a cliche programmer and speak on matters outside of your expertise as if you know what you’re talking about, this is dangerous territory.
- taneq 3y ago
  I find your comment unhelpful. Which is okay, you know, not every comment is gonna work for every person. Have you tried mindfulness? /s
  - xyzelement 3y ago
    We are all completely empowered to accept or reject all advice. Separately from that, there's a question of "which strategy is most likely to yield a good outcome." EG - you are welcome to get 100% of your calories from junk food, which is separate from our ability to discuss that you'll probably have a better life doing something different. On this sleep thing - one can do whatever the hell they want, and of course they may have limits in place that are unique to them. Which doesn't preclude us talking about what would be best and then whether we want to and can get there.
ederamen 3y ago
^ This - thank you
dahart 3y ago
Yeah suggestions about what to do, sans anything helpful about how to do it, are just annoying, especially when the thing is hard to do. That said, there’s a very big difference between doesn’t work and can’t work. Humans are pretty adaptable given the right circumstances, so I’d wager we’re talking mostly about the doesn’t category. Your comment totally reminds me of many conversations I’ve heard and read about weight loss where someone says “just consume fewer calories”, as if it’s somehow simple. Other person, annoyed, says “I’ve tried that, it doesn’t work for me” or “studies have shown that doesn’t work for most people”. It’s true that it generally doesn’t work for most people, I believe the failure rates are even higher than 50%, and yet it’s guaranteed that it can work, it’s physics. It’s not because people actually eat fewer calories and it fails, it’s because people generally aren’t able to reduce their calorie intake permanently, they revert. And trying to will yourself to overcome hunger tends to backfire, just like trying to will yourself to ‘just get up early’ tends to backfire. It doesn’t work because they don’t really know how to change their habits; habits are really hard to break, behavior is really hard to change. A lot of people fail to appreciate how hard it is, especially when some people do seem to be able to do it. I’ve gone through long periods where I was unable to be a morning person and, maybe like you, I could have bopped someone lightly on the nose for saying to me ‘just get up early’. But changes in my life have made it easier; my job changed, my kids turned into teenagers, my exercise changed, my outlook on life has change, my evening activities have changed. I also have a better idea of how to wake up early, and it doesn’t need to involve setting alarms and trying to force myself, it’s much more about how to spend the time, much more about what I want to get done, and much less about when.
- MrDrMcCoy 3y ago
  I think the point may have been more that many people have chronotypes [1] that negate the benefits of changing a sleep schedule to something that fits your waking schedule. Doing this may allow for better time allocations, but comes at the cost of the effectiveness of your forced circadian rhythm. [1] https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/chronotypes https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/chronotypes
  - dahart 3y ago
jandrewrogers 3y ago
In the US military, new recruits are put on a very early schedule (think: 5:00am wakeup) and an appropriately early bedtime. Within a matter of weeks, they become habituated to it such that everyone's body automatically starts operating on that schedule, even if no one wakes them up in the morning. I am skeptical that there is a biological reason 20-50% of the population can't get up early because it doesn't seem to be an issue in the myriad environments where waking up early is a general requirement. These environments aren't selecting for people that can get up early, they habituate people into getting up early. It clearly is possible most of the time.
- autoexec 3y ago
  I think people can train themselves to get up at any time, even in the middle of the night, but I have doubts that they'd all be fully alert at that hour even if they did it for months or years. I can train myself to wake up early, but my brain doesn't fully "wake up" until much later in the day. It might be genetic (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150514085748.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150514085748.h...) and there are groups looking at drugs to help night owls adapt to the artificial constraints modern society imposes on them.
  - shard 3y ago
    I think is a combination of physical activity waking the recruits up and keeping them alert, as well as physical exhaustion helping them fall asleep. I suppose anyone who is chronically unable to stick to that schedule would get weeded out quickly.
- BeFlatXIII 3y ago
  While I was never in the military, I have been in environments where I needed to be an earlybird. It's exactly as you say: the adaption to the environment makes the early rising palatable. However, once left to my own devices, I quickly return to my nocturnal habits. For me, it's less revenge bedtime procrastination and more so that nights are better for long blocks of uninterrupted time than days.
- 3y ago
slothtrop 3y ago
It's incomplete advice, but it can't be separated from effective advice. Similarly, "just eat less" is not useful/workable on it's own, but at the end of the day, losing weight relies on caloric deficit; it's still true. The missing piece with this, not unlike weight-loss, is the use of effective tools (that can include sunlight, scheduling everything differently, among other things).

by jmkd 3y ago

a96 3y ago

"Have you tried not being depressed?" "Thanks, I'm cured."

faeriechangling 3y ago

I suffered from delayed sleep phase syndrome for years and years. Root cause was undiagnosed health issues causing chronic pain and alertness. Once I nailed down the problem all it took from there was a mere complete lifestyle change, once which takes constant discipline to maintain. Which I manage to maintain mostly because lapses in discipline result in me being slapped hard back to reality. I was told to try melatonin so - many - times. I had so many printouts on sleep hygiene handed to me over the years. I was told repeatedly both to wake up early AND to restrict how long I spend in bed. Being told to wake up early was given The idea of doing a differential NEVER occurred to people as my sleep problems were obviously a result of my poor ethics and laziness and could be fixed with nothing more than an attitude adjustment. The point of this all being, is to say I agree with you rather strongly.

nyanpasu64 3y ago
Dealing with similar issues myself, what health issues did you discover and what do you do to cope?

xyzelement 3y ago

I find your comment unhelpful. We have no indication that the person being responded to has a hard limitation vs suboptimal habits. Not giving him advice because it might not help someone is the worst because it guarantees that it will not help him.

jmkd 3y ago
Fair point, but I find the kind of advice given goes beyond being unhelpful into being actually damaging. It's exasperating at best and makes the 'patient' feel as if no one understands them, or worse that the world is against them. On balance I weigh the damage of that as more negative than the absence of advice that might help.
- xyzelement 3y ago
  This is where you and I disagree. I find that a chance at tangible improvement is worth having to deal with the risk it cannot be accomplished.
  - 1123581321 3y ago
    As someone who used to think I had unique physiology, I eventually appreciated people who kept suggesting sensible advice with no downsides to try it. Thanks.
  - eska 3y ago
    I used to be depressed and constantly received the same bullshit advice which led me to believe nobody understands me and that I’m incurable and I was about to give up. Please don’t be a cliche programmer and speak on matters outside of your expertise as if you know what you’re talking about, this is dangerous territory.
taneq 3y ago
I find your comment unhelpful. Which is okay, you know, not every comment is gonna work for every person. Have you tried mindfulness? /s
- xyzelement 3y ago
  We are all completely empowered to accept or reject all advice. Separately from that, there's a question of "which strategy is most likely to yield a good outcome." EG - you are welcome to get 100% of your calories from junk food, which is separate from our ability to discuss that you'll probably have a better life doing something different. On this sleep thing - one can do whatever the hell they want, and of course they may have limits in place that are unique to them. Which doesn't preclude us talking about what would be best and then whether we want to and can get there.

ederamen 3y ago

^ This - thank you

dahart 3y ago

Yeah suggestions about what to do, sans anything helpful about how to do it, are just annoying, especially when the thing is hard to do. That said, there’s a very big difference between doesn’t work and can’t work. Humans are pretty adaptable given the right circumstances, so I’d wager we’re talking mostly about the doesn’t category. Your comment totally reminds me of many conversations I’ve heard and read about weight loss where someone says “just consume fewer calories”, as if it’s somehow simple. Other person, annoyed, says “I’ve tried that, it doesn’t work for me” or “studies have shown that doesn’t work for most people”. It’s true that it generally doesn’t work for most people, I believe the failure rates are even higher than 50%, and yet it’s guaranteed that it can work, it’s physics. It’s not because people actually eat fewer calories and it fails, it’s because people generally aren’t able to reduce their calorie intake permanently, they revert. And trying to will yourself to overcome hunger tends to backfire, just like trying to will yourself to ‘just get up early’ tends to backfire. It doesn’t work because they don’t really know how to change their habits; habits are really hard to break, behavior is really hard to change. A lot of people fail to appreciate how hard it is, especially when some people do seem to be able to do it. I’ve gone through long periods where I was unable to be a morning person and, maybe like you, I could have bopped someone lightly on the nose for saying to me ‘just get up early’. But changes in my life have made it easier; my job changed, my kids turned into teenagers, my exercise changed, my outlook on life has change, my evening activities have changed. I also have a better idea of how to wake up early, and it doesn’t need to involve setting alarms and trying to force myself, it’s much more about how to spend the time, much more about what I want to get done, and much less about when.

MrDrMcCoy 3y ago
I think the point may have been more that many people have chronotypes [1] that negate the benefits of changing a sleep schedule to something that fits your waking schedule. Doing this may allow for better time allocations, but comes at the cost of the effectiveness of your forced circadian rhythm. [1] https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/chronotypes https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-sleep-works/chronotypes
- dahart 3y ago

jandrewrogers 3y ago

In the US military, new recruits are put on a very early schedule (think: 5:00am wakeup) and an appropriately early bedtime. Within a matter of weeks, they become habituated to it such that everyone's body automatically starts operating on that schedule, even if no one wakes them up in the morning. I am skeptical that there is a biological reason 20-50% of the population can't get up early because it doesn't seem to be an issue in the myriad environments where waking up early is a general requirement. These environments aren't selecting for people that can get up early, they habituate people into getting up early. It clearly is possible most of the time.

autoexec 3y ago
I think people can train themselves to get up at any time, even in the middle of the night, but I have doubts that they'd all be fully alert at that hour even if they did it for months or years. I can train myself to wake up early, but my brain doesn't fully "wake up" until much later in the day. It might be genetic (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150514085748.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150514085748.h...) and there are groups looking at drugs to help night owls adapt to the artificial constraints modern society imposes on them.
- shard 3y ago
  I think is a combination of physical activity waking the recruits up and keeping them alert, as well as physical exhaustion helping them fall asleep. I suppose anyone who is chronically unable to stick to that schedule would get weeded out quickly.
BeFlatXIII 3y ago
While I was never in the military, I have been in environments where I needed to be an earlybird. It's exactly as you say: the adaption to the environment makes the early rising palatable. However, once left to my own devices, I quickly return to my nocturnal habits. For me, it's less revenge bedtime procrastination and more so that nights are better for long blocks of uninterrupted time than days.
3y ago

slothtrop 3y ago

It's incomplete advice, but it can't be separated from effective advice. Similarly, "just eat less" is not useful/workable on it's own, but at the end of the day, losing weight relies on caloric deficit; it's still true. The missing piece with this, not unlike weight-loss, is the use of effective tools (that can include sunlight, scheduling everything differently, among other things).