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train travel is almost always the most expensive option compared to car, bus or plane alternatives. from a sustainability perspective an insanely lobsided state
by nologic01 3y ago
train travel is almost always the most expensive option compared to car, bus or plane alternatives. from a sustainability perspective an insanely lobsided state of affairs, the result of a century long of distorted incentives and policies.
what could be more pleasant than being able to criss-cross Europe in night trains that are affordable, comfortable and sustainable? makes sense both for business and tourism. you cover a large distance overnight and you make best use of the day.
lifting half of the continent's population into near-orbital trajectory for its annual "sun vacation" migration just because it can be done and is "cheap" might come to be seen as a prime example of how human economics can float far away from any reality.
- la_fayette 3y agoWhat you mean with expensive here? From the point of view of somebody who comutes daily, there is by far nothing cheaper than the 49 euro German ticket, similarly the Austrian climate ticket...
- Xylakant 3y agoOn commute distances with a monthly ticket, train has been competitive for a while, but longer distances are tough, especially if you’re multiple people.
- la_fayette 3y agoAs a student I used the Interrail ticket to travel all over europe on a shoestring budget. Also there are plenty of offerings, which let you travel larger distances for a low price (e.g., ÖBB Sparschiene 29 eur vienna to amsterdam), you have to book it some time in advance though, similarly to flying...
- Xylakant 3y agoInterrail is great - we spent 3 month last year seeing all of Europe. But it doesn’t include your country of residence, so visiting the parents on the other side of the state is not an option. And traveling with the cheap tickets and kids is hard - if you miss the train (which just happens with kids) the ticket is void. The ticket is not refundable if plans change. All of these downsides that a car doesn’t have (I still prefer train, but we can afford it). And for longer distances, train becomes hard - we’ve been to Mallorca by train and ferry, but it takes a few days instead of a few hours. And it’s substantially more expensive on top.
- nologic01 3y agodaily commute is a fairly different story. Night trains are about mid-range distances (say ~500 km) where you might also cross country borders.
- Freak_NL 3y agoQuite a bit further than 500 km; think 600 km (Amsterdam–Berlin) to 1000 km (Amsterdam–Wien). And that is leaving out the additional distance one might travel onwards or towards the night train's stations.
- nologic01 3y agoindeed longer distances are within the broader proposition of a night train network. leaving earlier in the evening and arriving before noon almost doubles the distance. though this comes at the expense of a shorter day. now about that shift key... I think I read somewhere that capitalization is a relatively recent invention (like after 1000 AD). people used to do all caps and then they invented all lower case and then somebody had the idea of complicating things by mixing the two :-)
- jdasdf 3y ago>what could be more pleasant than being able to criss-cross Europe in night trains that are affordable, comfortable and sustainable? Doing it by plane at a fraction of the time and cost.
- Yacoby 3y agoThe interesting thing is that it that night trains can be quicker if you consider the waking. e.g. Zurich to Berlin - the train leaves at 8pm and gets in at 7am. So it is 2-3 waking hours spent. (Does of course depend on how well you sleep on trains)
- geysersam 3y agoCopenhagen to Berlin overnight. You go to bed in the train around midnight and wake up in Berlin around 8 or 9. Nothing can be more convenient.
- KptMarchewa 3y agoIt's too close of a distance for a night train. It should take maybe three hours on properly developed railways that do not go around.
- geysersam 3y agoIt has to go around because there's water in the way no?
- KptMarchewa 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_fixed_link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_fixed_link
- geysersam 3y agoAt a fraction of the cost because air travel doesn't pay it's real costs in terms of environmental damage (or even taxes...).
- polar8 3y ago7% of orbital altitude is not near-orbital.
- nologic01 3y agoIts a nice thought though. Every time I fly I am amazed how quickly this mode of travel has been trivialized in peoples minds. Barely anyone even looks outside the window... I am pretty sure that if we ever invent wormhole travel and reach the outer limits of the universe, in a few generations Homo Sapiens will think thats just the most mundane thing :-)
- easytiger 3y ago[flagged]
- TRiG_Ireland 3y agoThe luddites had a good point.
- BowBun 3y agoIt's interesting to me how you lob the words 'luddite' and 'wishing misery' at the most basic suggestion of moderation of abstinence from trips to Spain (or equivalent). I shudder at what words you must surely reserve for those that systemically privatize food, water, and shelter - things we actually need to survive.
- easytiger 3y agoAnd yet the author failed to explain how self flagellation and abstinence from proscribed behaviour will change anything
- BowBun 3y agoAgain with the dramatics. I'm sorry you feel that abstaining from some modern luxuries is 'self flagellation'. I recommend you travel some more. Your point is moot anyway because I wasn't arguing GP's point, I was saying that your reaction is disproportionate to the measures suggested.
- nologic01 3y agoAh. Somebody calling names, with zero conscience and sense of responsibility about their behavior and impact on others. FYI your "agency" ends when your inane and largely arbitrary consumerist habits destroy my living space. Capiche?
- easytiger 3y agoHow does air travel interfere with your "living space"?
- the_mitsuhiko 3y agoGiven that I have yearly subscription for trains they are essentially free per use for me. Hard to beat.
- Freak_NL 3y agoNight trains are already competitively priced in parts of Europe if you factor in the hotel night you save. Take Amsterdam to Innsbruck: Travel 1000 km by car, and you arrive late at night, exhausted, go to sleep at your accommodation, and get up in the morning for the start of your itinerary. Don't forget to factor in the costs of wear-and-tear on your car for those 1000 km. Take a night train, and you get to leave much later in the day, but end up at the same point as the car example above, but the cost of the night's accommodation (the train) was already part of your ticket. Same for the return journey. The current market situation is not perfect — this only works for places within reach of the night train network by a few hours of additional transit at most — but night trains are gradually becoming an attractive option for more and more people in Europe. ÖBB took a gamble a decade or so ago by taking over the DB night train lines, and they are now the market leader with a fairly good track record. Night trains form the backbone of my holidays further a field in Europe. It's only getting better. Your shift-key is broken by the way.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- TomK32 3y agoSadly commercial aviation fuel is currently tax exempt in the EU while the railroad companies do have to pay taxes for the fuel and energy.
- xyzzyz 3y agoIf aviation fuel was taxed at 100%, the ticket prices would only go up 20%. This alone would not make trains significantly more competitive. Generally speaking, though, it doesn’t make sense to compare subsidies and taxes individually. Both planes and trains are already heavily subsidized, and if you removed all subsidies and taxes, I suspect planes would win handily.
- nologic01 3y ago> if you removed all subsidies and taxes, I suspect planes would win handily Until all transport is long-term sustainable in terms of environmental impact the cost calculus is messed up. Check out carbon footprint ranking of different modes [1]. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint https://ourworldindata.org/travel-carbon-footprint
- TomK32 3y agoHm, I wonder if the Eurostar to Paris includes the emissions caused by digging the tunnel.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]