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I'm from the south and have never once heard anything like this. Any source? It sounds like a caricature.

by ctoth 3y ago

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> from the south and have never once heard anything like this I should have added that I've typically heard it in liberal suburbs, not rural America. Good, recent example is this thread [1] right here on HN (in particular this comment [2]). [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37654342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37654342. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37654578 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37654578
- api 3y ago
  The thing about women entering the workforce making it impossible to have a single earner home is nonsense. The problem is housing. Most things are the same price or cheaper as a percentage of median income today except housing. That’s because housing is treated as investment meant to appreciate, leading to perverse incentives to artificially restrict supply. IMHO housing is the economic problem in the Western world. Most of the reason younger people feel poorer than their parents is housing. Most of the pressure on families is housing. The demographic collapse issue is due in part to housing costs. Real estate is cancer and the most important economic battle of today is finding a way to break the real estate market. All the people panicking over demographics should be in favor of state and federal density mandates, telework where possible, and zoning reform.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Housing isn't the only aspect, by far. Our family healthcare insurance premium is double our mortgage, and it goes up more than inflation (and wage growth) every year.
    - api 3y ago
      Yeah health care is another problem but the cost disease here is not as deeply entrenched in the economy as housing. The whole real estate market and a giant chunk of the financial system runs on the idea that housing must always go up, which necessitates that it must become less affordable over time.
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        > The whole real estate market and a giant chunk of the financial system runs on the idea that housing must always go up, which necessitates that it must become less affordable over time. The same is true for healthcare. Pfizer needs to demonstrate ongoing growth to their shareholders; insurance companies are bound by the ACA to a maximum profit margin so can only increase profits by growing costs; half the new commercial real estate in my area is medical buildings going up.
  - lliamander 3y ago
    > The thing about women entering the workforce making it impossible to have a single earner home is nonsense. The problem is housing. I think you may be right about the overall problem, but I'm not sure I agree that density is the solution. People starting families don't just want a house, what they want is enough space. Mothers want a yard they can send the kids out into when they need a moments peace, closets to store everyone's junk, and bathrooms big enough to walk into while pregnant. I think disaggregating populations into more medium and small cities would help keep costs down and give people more space.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > People starting families don't just want a house, what they want is enough space. Mothers want a yard they can send the kids out into when they need a moments peace, closets to store everyone's junk, and bathrooms big enough to walk into while pregnant All of this also means said mother can't go to the corner to pick up supplies, but must drive to the store. There isn't an abundance of neighbors to help out or restaurants with cheap delivery; everything must be done themselves. The notion that families require low density is very culturally-specific and a choice more than a necessity. Yes, four people need more physical space than two, but not to the extent of modern suburbia.
      - lliamander 3y ago
        There is value in mixed use neighborhoods - low density doesn't automatically mean suburban sprawl. Most of human history has been spent in much lower density living situations than we have now, and I'm pretty confident there is a negative correlation between housing density and fertility.
        em-bee 3y ago
        there is a middle ground between low and high density. there is no need for each home to have their own garden. but a multi story building with a dozen or more families that can share one. take a look at some cities in germany. stuttgart, ruhrgebiet, and many others. they are actually a lot of small cities close together with lots of green space in between. each has their own shops, offices, schools, etc within walking distance and an extensive public transport network to connect them.
ceejayoz 3y ago
I dunno how mainstream it is, but this opinion very definitely exists. https://newrepublic.com/article/173288/tpusa-young-women-summer-aint-nothing-wrong-tradwife https://newrepublic.com/article/173288/tpusa-young-women-sum... > The influencer saved her most controversial take for last: Daycare is feminist garbage too. It raises cortisol levels in children. It creates disordered attachment styles. It is pernicious poison, Marxist cancer. “I believe the feminist movement is in large part to blame for the fracturing of the traditional home, where women were coerced outside of their natural roles as mothers into the workforce,” Clark said. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradwife https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradwife
- api 3y ago
  I’ve come to the belief that virtually all of the culture war is a battle over fertility and parenting. One of the hardest things about being human is that human children are ludicrously high maintenance. We have some of the highest maintenance offspring in nature. High parental investment requirements may be a factor in our evolution of complex social systems and longevity (“the grandmother effect”) but it also creates massive pressure and strife in the areas of gender and social dynamics. I feel like non parents don’t get this. I have kids and listen when I say that nothing can prepare you for how high maintenance human children are. There are no words. Even the process of pregnancy and delivery are a life threatening medical condition that used to kill a large number of women. Our species really is uniquely burdened this way. Many cultures have what amounts to a system of soft socially enforced slavery in which 50% of the population, namely women, are pressured or compelled to dedicate their lives to reproduction and raising children. Cultures that don’t do this either face declining birth rates or have to subsidize it financially instead because someone has to do it. Humans do not emerge from eggs and raise themselves. I think this means if we want gender equality and don’t also want demographic collapse we must subsidize high quality child care.

I'm from the south and have never once heard anything like this. Any source? It sounds like a caricature.

by ctoth 3y ago

I'm from the south and have never once heard anything like this. Any source? It sounds like a caricature.

> from the south and have never once heard anything like this I should have added that I've typically heard it in liberal suburbs, not rural America. Good, recent example is this thread [1] right here on HN (in particular this comment [2]). [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37654342 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37654342. [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37654578 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37654578

api 3y ago
The thing about women entering the workforce making it impossible to have a single earner home is nonsense. The problem is housing. Most things are the same price or cheaper as a percentage of median income today except housing. That’s because housing is treated as investment meant to appreciate, leading to perverse incentives to artificially restrict supply. IMHO housing is the economic problem in the Western world. Most of the reason younger people feel poorer than their parents is housing. Most of the pressure on families is housing. The demographic collapse issue is due in part to housing costs. Real estate is cancer and the most important economic battle of today is finding a way to break the real estate market. All the people panicking over demographics should be in favor of state and federal density mandates, telework where possible, and zoning reform.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Housing isn't the only aspect, by far. Our family healthcare insurance premium is double our mortgage, and it goes up more than inflation (and wage growth) every year.
  - api 3y ago
    Yeah health care is another problem but the cost disease here is not as deeply entrenched in the economy as housing. The whole real estate market and a giant chunk of the financial system runs on the idea that housing must always go up, which necessitates that it must become less affordable over time.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      > The whole real estate market and a giant chunk of the financial system runs on the idea that housing must always go up, which necessitates that it must become less affordable over time. The same is true for healthcare. Pfizer needs to demonstrate ongoing growth to their shareholders; insurance companies are bound by the ACA to a maximum profit margin so can only increase profits by growing costs; half the new commercial real estate in my area is medical buildings going up.
- lliamander 3y ago
  > The thing about women entering the workforce making it impossible to have a single earner home is nonsense. The problem is housing. I think you may be right about the overall problem, but I'm not sure I agree that density is the solution. People starting families don't just want a house, what they want is enough space. Mothers want a yard they can send the kids out into when they need a moments peace, closets to store everyone's junk, and bathrooms big enough to walk into while pregnant. I think disaggregating populations into more medium and small cities would help keep costs down and give people more space.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > People starting families don't just want a house, what they want is enough space. Mothers want a yard they can send the kids out into when they need a moments peace, closets to store everyone's junk, and bathrooms big enough to walk into while pregnant All of this also means said mother can't go to the corner to pick up supplies, but must drive to the store. There isn't an abundance of neighbors to help out or restaurants with cheap delivery; everything must be done themselves. The notion that families require low density is very culturally-specific and a choice more than a necessity. Yes, four people need more physical space than two, but not to the extent of modern suburbia.
    - lliamander 3y ago
      There is value in mixed use neighborhoods - low density doesn't automatically mean suburban sprawl. Most of human history has been spent in much lower density living situations than we have now, and I'm pretty confident there is a negative correlation between housing density and fertility.
      - em-bee 3y ago
        there is a middle ground between low and high density. there is no need for each home to have their own garden. but a multi story building with a dozen or more families that can share one. take a look at some cities in germany. stuttgart, ruhrgebiet, and many others. they are actually a lot of small cities close together with lots of green space in between. each has their own shops, offices, schools, etc within walking distance and an extensive public transport network to connect them.

ceejayoz 3y ago

I dunno how mainstream it is, but this opinion very definitely exists. https://newrepublic.com/article/173288/tpusa-young-women-summer-aint-nothing-wrong-tradwife https://newrepublic.com/article/173288/tpusa-young-women-sum... > The influencer saved her most controversial take for last: Daycare is feminist garbage too. It raises cortisol levels in children. It creates disordered attachment styles. It is pernicious poison, Marxist cancer. “I believe the feminist movement is in large part to blame for the fracturing of the traditional home, where women were coerced outside of their natural roles as mothers into the workforce,” Clark said. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradwife https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradwife

api 3y ago
I’ve come to the belief that virtually all of the culture war is a battle over fertility and parenting. One of the hardest things about being human is that human children are ludicrously high maintenance. We have some of the highest maintenance offspring in nature. High parental investment requirements may be a factor in our evolution of complex social systems and longevity (“the grandmother effect”) but it also creates massive pressure and strife in the areas of gender and social dynamics. I feel like non parents don’t get this. I have kids and listen when I say that nothing can prepare you for how high maintenance human children are. There are no words. Even the process of pregnancy and delivery are a life threatening medical condition that used to kill a large number of women. Our species really is uniquely burdened this way. Many cultures have what amounts to a system of soft socially enforced slavery in which 50% of the population, namely women, are pressured or compelled to dedicate their lives to reproduction and raising children. Cultures that don’t do this either face declining birth rates or have to subsidize it financially instead because someone has to do it. Humans do not emerge from eggs and raise themselves. I think this means if we want gender equality and don’t also want demographic collapse we must subsidize high quality child care.