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Your entire argument is nonsensical, but this part: > With enough money you can buy all the others is particularly easily falsifiable. A billionaire in China

Your entire argument is nonsensical, but this part: > With enough money you can buy all the others is particularly easily falsifiable. A billionaire in China does not have freedom of speech and cannot buy it.

FredPret 3y ago
I'd love to see your well-developed argument against economic freedom. Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home.
- olivermuty 3y ago
  Did you just use freedom to escape the system as an argument in favour of the system? Or what is your point here?
  - justinclift 3y ago
    > Or what is your point here? That with enough money, all of the other needs can be fulfilled one way or another?
- huijzer 3y ago
  > Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world Unless you threaten the authoritarian leader via, for example, having too much money or saying negative things. Where, for example, is Jack Ma? He used to be very focal and visible until his disappearance, but nowadays he is allegedly peacefully enjoying his retirement with painting. According to Alibaba co-founder Joe Tsai, Jack Ma "is fine. He is lying low right now. I talk to him every day. I actually message him, we have our own messaging platform. He is actually doing very very well. He's taken up painting as a hobby. It's actually pretty good. I can show you some photos later." [1] I still haven't seen any interviews with Jack Ma since his dissapearance where is he is not surrounded by multiple guys in black suits. [1] https://youtu.be/KveMLJNhwkc?si=dGJbujD-57FlHpNP https://youtu.be/KveMLJNhwkc?si=dGJbujD-57FlHpNP
  - tibbydudeza 3y ago
    He travels afaik - he did a lecture in Tokyo on entrepreneurship - his family is back home in China so there is no risk for the govt.
    - jszymborski 3y ago
      He lost more than half his wealth and was pushed out of Ant, all just after mysteriously vanishing for some time [0]. Those in China who have power and criticize the PRC are swiftly punished for it and stripped of that power. I know "freedom of speech" is a term that's been significantly watered down in common parlance, but this is the poster child of not having it. [0] https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/12/business/china-jack-ma-wealth-drop-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/12/business/china-jack-ma-wealth...
      - angra_mainyu 3y ago
        What about: MacLean, Assange, Manning, Snowden, Crane, Swartz, Drake? McCarthyism? The entire Twitter Files exposé? Arrests over social media arguments (I'm recalling cases particularly in the UK). Both in the US and in Western Europe there's been a frightening and ever faster decay of freedom of speech over the past years.
        jszymborski 3y ago
        We were talking about free speech (or the lack there of) in China so I fail to see how any of this is relevant. None of it makes speech any freer in China, none of this means money can save you, none of this is OK or should be tolerated. I'm going to assume you are arguing in good faith, but FYI such "whataboutisms" are the go to defence of bad faith actors when any criticism of China is brought up.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home. That didn’t work for Jack Ma.
  - justinclift 3y ago
    Jack Ma is kind of a special case though, as he seemed to feel he was a special case that could get away with challenging the CCP. While he was still living in China. Maybe a case of high INT stat, but low WIS?
- tw1984 3y ago
  > Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world probably because they enjoy the prison food in the free world. check what happened to Guo Wengui. > or buy political influence at home. Jack Ma and Hui Ka Yan won't agree with your comments above.
- spacebanana7 3y ago
  > Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home. This is probably easier for a Chinese millionaire that a Chinese billionaire. If any of the Chinese big tech guys moved to Australia I imagine it cause a bit of a scandal.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > If any of the Chinese big tech guys moved to Australia I imagine it cause a bit of a scandal. And the scandal would be “Nobody has had any news from <tech guy> for the past ten days, suspicions of forced disappearance creates diplomatic tensions between Australia and China” or something like that.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ookdatnog 3y ago
  I'm not arguing against economic freedom, I'm arguing against your argument in favor of economic freedom. And I'm arguing against you ranking it higher than, say, freedom of speech.
tibbydudeza 3y ago
Ask Jack Ma from Alibaba how that ended for him - he never realized he was just in a bigger gilded cage than the other folks in China.
AmericanChopper 3y ago
Primarily due to a lack of economic freedom. If a billionaire in the west (or even just an ordinary wealthy or high income person) doesn’t like how oppressive their government is, they can just take their wealth and productivity to a place they’re more happy with. A wealthy Chinese person has far less property rights over their wealth, they’re absolutely not free to remove it from the country, and their continued access to it relies on continued approval from the CCP.
- FredPret 3y ago
  Totally. Did Jack Ma really have that wealth to begin with? Money isn't yours if you can't spend or move it.

FredPret 3y ago

I'd love to see your well-developed argument against economic freedom. Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home.

olivermuty 3y ago
Did you just use freedom to escape the system as an argument in favour of the system? Or what is your point here?
- justinclift 3y ago
  > Or what is your point here? That with enough money, all of the other needs can be fulfilled one way or another?
huijzer 3y ago
> Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world Unless you threaten the authoritarian leader via, for example, having too much money or saying negative things. Where, for example, is Jack Ma? He used to be very focal and visible until his disappearance, but nowadays he is allegedly peacefully enjoying his retirement with painting. According to Alibaba co-founder Joe Tsai, Jack Ma "is fine. He is lying low right now. I talk to him every day. I actually message him, we have our own messaging platform. He is actually doing very very well. He's taken up painting as a hobby. It's actually pretty good. I can show you some photos later." [1] I still haven't seen any interviews with Jack Ma since his dissapearance where is he is not surrounded by multiple guys in black suits. [1] https://youtu.be/KveMLJNhwkc?si=dGJbujD-57FlHpNP https://youtu.be/KveMLJNhwkc?si=dGJbujD-57FlHpNP
- tibbydudeza 3y ago
  He travels afaik - he did a lecture in Tokyo on entrepreneurship - his family is back home in China so there is no risk for the govt.
  - jszymborski 3y ago
    He lost more than half his wealth and was pushed out of Ant, all just after mysteriously vanishing for some time [0]. Those in China who have power and criticize the PRC are swiftly punished for it and stripped of that power. I know "freedom of speech" is a term that's been significantly watered down in common parlance, but this is the poster child of not having it. [0] https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/12/business/china-jack-ma-wealth-drop-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/12/business/china-jack-ma-wealth...
    - angra_mainyu 3y ago
      What about: MacLean, Assange, Manning, Snowden, Crane, Swartz, Drake? McCarthyism? The entire Twitter Files exposé? Arrests over social media arguments (I'm recalling cases particularly in the UK). Both in the US and in Western Europe there's been a frightening and ever faster decay of freedom of speech over the past years.
      - jszymborski 3y ago
        We were talking about free speech (or the lack there of) in China so I fail to see how any of this is relevant. None of it makes speech any freer in China, none of this means money can save you, none of this is OK or should be tolerated. I'm going to assume you are arguing in good faith, but FYI such "whataboutisms" are the go to defence of bad faith actors when any criticism of China is brought up.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
> Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home. That didn’t work for Jack Ma.
- justinclift 3y ago
  Jack Ma is kind of a special case though, as he seemed to feel he was a special case that could get away with challenging the CCP. While he was still living in China. Maybe a case of high INT stat, but low WIS?
tw1984 3y ago
> Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world probably because they enjoy the prison food in the free world. check what happened to Guo Wengui. > or buy political influence at home. Jack Ma and Hui Ka Yan won't agree with your comments above.
spacebanana7 3y ago
> Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home. This is probably easier for a Chinese millionaire that a Chinese billionaire. If any of the Chinese big tech guys moved to Australia I imagine it cause a bit of a scandal.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > If any of the Chinese big tech guys moved to Australia I imagine it cause a bit of a scandal. And the scandal would be “Nobody has had any news from <tech guy> for the past ten days, suspicions of forced disappearance creates diplomatic tensions between Australia and China” or something like that.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ookdatnog 3y ago
I'm not arguing against economic freedom, I'm arguing against your argument in favor of economic freedom. And I'm arguing against you ranking it higher than, say, freedom of speech.

tibbydudeza 3y ago

Ask Jack Ma from Alibaba how that ended for him - he never realized he was just in a bigger gilded cage than the other folks in China.

AmericanChopper 3y ago

Primarily due to a lack of economic freedom. If a billionaire in the west (or even just an ordinary wealthy or high income person) doesn’t like how oppressive their government is, they can just take their wealth and productivity to a place they’re more happy with. A wealthy Chinese person has far less property rights over their wealth, they’re absolutely not free to remove it from the country, and their continued access to it relies on continued approval from the CCP.

FredPret 3y ago
Totally. Did Jack Ma really have that wealth to begin with? Money isn't yours if you can't spend or move it.