5 ms·

Economic freedom is second among the freedoms only after physical safety. With enough money you can buy all the others, and all the others exist primarily to en

Economic freedom is second among the freedoms only after physical safety. With enough money you can buy all the others, and all the others exist primarily to ensure you can be safe and end up with enough money. This fact is ignored, overlooked, or pooh-poohed by those whose ambitions for society requires a large state. To maximize human freedom, there's an optimal balance to be struck between a stateless society and one that'll prosecute you as you described. I think the optimum is far toward the "free" end of the spectrum.

throwaway4good 3y ago
China is very high on the economic freedom scale (setting up a business, taxation etc.); probably much higher than the US or Europe.
- FredPret 3y ago
  Sure, so economically free, besides the communism part
  - tw1984 3y ago
    China is a typical state capitalist country. You don't have the state looking after the wellfares of individuals, you are on your own all the time. $0 handouts during covid pandemic is the best example. You don't have unions stopping businesses and asking better pay & less working hours for its members. Talking about communism, the US is getting there fast. Look at its current union movement, with both 2024 US presidential election candidates openly supporting those unions, man, it is communism, it is cancer.
    - otikik 3y ago
      If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak, with a couple exceptions (Police Unions). The US is way more similar to communism in the way the ultrarich accumulate benefits but socialize loses. Another big example is the military, which is essentially a socialist organization.
      - tw1984 3y ago
        > If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak wait a second. unions in the US are weak? what a huge joke! UAW stopped the production of US made cars, asking 40% wage increase. Yet that is weak? let me tell you what is "weak" unions - in China, which implements state capitalism, unions represent the interests of the management & business owners, not workers & union members. Permanent contract is pretty much unheard of for labour workers, you won't get paid for working over time, 4 days per week communist style working hours is like 100 years away, you'd be luck if you don't need to work 7 days a week. you still pay your union fees, but you won't get anything from them, strike gets you into jail and your union bosses are going to kick your ass even before the arrival of police. you got brainwashed by your "free" media. you've never ever experienced the brutal state capitalism, as you live in your lovely western communist society. here in Shanghai, the economic capital of this state capitalist country called China - * you don't get treated for medical conditions if you don't pay all those treatments in advance. pay your bill late kind of communist arrangement doesn't exist here. * if you are a labour worker, you need to save like 500 years worth of your before tax income to buy a shitty & tiny apartment, that is right, you need to be start saving money before the independence of the communist US. * can't afford to buy? no worries, just rent, 3 months rent plus 1 month bond and 1 month rent equivalent agent fee is the typical condition here. factor in the cost to move, you pretty much need 6 months rent worth of money to afford to rent. * social housing you ask - people are going to laugh at you, that hasn't been invented yet. the state is the biggest land owner, residential land is auction to developers to build residential properties, why would any sane people working for the state to build social housing to undermine one of the largest income streams of the state? * can't afford to rent and there is no social housing? well, homeless is not an option as that deteriorate the quality of investment environment of your city. you will be dealt with like a piece of trash. angry about all these? well, they promote a few poster boys every year who managed to rise from the very bottom, they tell you something you probably heard it many times already - it is all about personal choices.
        smcl 3y ago
        The UAW striking, and politicians showing support for unions is nothing new and doesn't suggest the USA is suddenly careening towards communism. You're either incredibly naive or have consumed some hysterical far-right news if you believe this.
- tw1984 3y ago
  That is not true. You are only allowed to setup businesses that are considered as in non-key sectors. Try setting a private gas station, or an ISP. Good lucky for that. The most recent example is the private tutor business, setting a private tutor business helping kids to do better in their maths exams can get you into big big trouble with the state. We are talking about an economy that didn't allow people to freely trade salt less than 10 years ago.
  - throwaway4good 3y ago
    Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated. Granted. I don't know of any remotely reasonable (non-politicized) comparable study of economic freedom in China; my assessment is from talking to people (expats, entrepreneurs etc.) and just looking at what was going on. I remember sitting at a restaurant in a small village and watching a local drone company doing testing on the parking lot. 4 engineers and a drone the size of a small car. Just no way that would be allowed in anywhere in Europe.
    - FredPret 3y ago
      Europe isn't a bastion of economic freedom - a previous commenter described an absolutely egregious amount of government overreach pertaining taxes.
    - tw1984 3y ago
      > Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated. Around here, setting up a sausage stand requires special approval from the Prime Minister of the People's Republic of China. That is the exact special & emergency arrangement they put forward during COVID - people were allowed to setup such stands in selected areas during weekends to boost economy during COVID.
      - angra_mainyu 3y ago
        What about before COVID?
- spacebanana7 3y ago
  China is a has a very statist economic system with limited economic freedom for consumers. To list a few examples - urban property cannot be owned outright by any non-state entity, Chinese citizens are heavily restricted from investing overseas, and foreign investment/media consumption is also limited.
  - somat 3y ago
    A question on the ownership of property in china and how it relates to the "nail" houses often seen in pictures. While I am sure real property ownership is weaker in china, The propaganda is I assume based on a exaggerated version of the truth. I also have never seen a public works project held up so dramatically by a single reluctant owner. Usually the government will claim eminent domain and poof, there go all your so called real property ownership rights, up in smoke. What is it about these cases that that a person in a communist state(where by definition no one owns property(yes I know this is not strictly true but for the sake of the question hear me out)) apparently has stronger property guarantees than than our ownership centric capitalist state?
    - spacebanana7 3y ago
      My concern with Chinese property rights is the nature of the land use right rather than the respect those rights receive for from the government. For example instead of buying a house in China, people obtain residential land use rights from the local authority for a period of up to 70 years [1]. AFAIK this translates to a 70 year leasehold contract in British, which isn't that much. It's very possible, in theory, to 'purchase' a house in China and have be unable to live in it within your lifetime. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_law_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_law_in_China
- raverbashing 3y ago
  This is easily proved wrong China is in position 154 https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking "Oh but China, oh but Europe, oh blah blah blah" try actually establishing a company on the lower bottoms of the rank
  - angra_mainyu 3y ago
    https://www.networkideas.org/news-analysis/2005/06/index-of-economic-freedom/ https://www.networkideas.org/news-analysis/2005/06/index-of-... Using the Heritage Foundation's ranking is quite misleading.
emsign 3y ago
Economic freedom can only be enforced with police, meaning the state protecting the assets of the rich. So no, it's not as simple as you say.
- FredPret 3y ago
  My comment clearly, if not explicitly, makes allowance for police.
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  Perhaps that is why they explicity did not even try to say it was simple, and explicitly spoke of a scale with stateless at one end and the optimum somewhere between the ends. there was no "as simple as you say"
ookdatnog 3y ago
Your entire argument is nonsensical, but this part: > With enough money you can buy all the others is particularly easily falsifiable. A billionaire in China does not have freedom of speech and cannot buy it.
- FredPret 3y ago
  I'd love to see your well-developed argument against economic freedom. Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home.
  - olivermuty 3y ago
    Did you just use freedom to escape the system as an argument in favour of the system? Or what is your point here?
    - justinclift 3y ago
      > Or what is your point here? That with enough money, all of the other needs can be fulfilled one way or another?
  - huijzer 3y ago
    > Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world Unless you threaten the authoritarian leader via, for example, having too much money or saying negative things. Where, for example, is Jack Ma? He used to be very focal and visible until his disappearance, but nowadays he is allegedly peacefully enjoying his retirement with painting. According to Alibaba co-founder Joe Tsai, Jack Ma "is fine. He is lying low right now. I talk to him every day. I actually message him, we have our own messaging platform. He is actually doing very very well. He's taken up painting as a hobby. It's actually pretty good. I can show you some photos later." [1] I still haven't seen any interviews with Jack Ma since his dissapearance where is he is not surrounded by multiple guys in black suits. [1] https://youtu.be/KveMLJNhwkc?si=dGJbujD-57FlHpNP https://youtu.be/KveMLJNhwkc?si=dGJbujD-57FlHpNP
    - 3y ago
mindslight 3y ago
Yes, wealth can mitigate attacks on your freedom. But for everyone to financially maintain their other freedoms requires a degree of economic freedom not afforded by basically any country on earth. Instead we mostly have managed fiat currencies that are continually inflated, vacuuming real wealth towards a politically-connected center, and making it so that only a fraction of the population can ever be capable of amassing enough wealth to purchase freedom. So your argument is a bit specious in the world we actually have, and ignoring that it falls apart is a recipe for justifying oppression. Coming at it from another direction, I'd say that government guarantees of freedom are essentially non-fungible assets that resist the ability for lopsided/captured/coercive markets to financially strip them.

throwaway4good 3y ago

China is very high on the economic freedom scale (setting up a business, taxation etc.); probably much higher than the US or Europe.

FredPret 3y ago
Sure, so economically free, besides the communism part
- tw1984 3y ago
  China is a typical state capitalist country. You don't have the state looking after the wellfares of individuals, you are on your own all the time. $0 handouts during covid pandemic is the best example. You don't have unions stopping businesses and asking better pay & less working hours for its members. Talking about communism, the US is getting there fast. Look at its current union movement, with both 2024 US presidential election candidates openly supporting those unions, man, it is communism, it is cancer.
  - otikik 3y ago
    If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak, with a couple exceptions (Police Unions). The US is way more similar to communism in the way the ultrarich accumulate benefits but socialize loses. Another big example is the military, which is essentially a socialist organization.
    - tw1984 3y ago
      > If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak wait a second. unions in the US are weak? what a huge joke! UAW stopped the production of US made cars, asking 40% wage increase. Yet that is weak? let me tell you what is "weak" unions - in China, which implements state capitalism, unions represent the interests of the management & business owners, not workers & union members. Permanent contract is pretty much unheard of for labour workers, you won't get paid for working over time, 4 days per week communist style working hours is like 100 years away, you'd be luck if you don't need to work 7 days a week. you still pay your union fees, but you won't get anything from them, strike gets you into jail and your union bosses are going to kick your ass even before the arrival of police. you got brainwashed by your "free" media. you've never ever experienced the brutal state capitalism, as you live in your lovely western communist society. here in Shanghai, the economic capital of this state capitalist country called China - * you don't get treated for medical conditions if you don't pay all those treatments in advance. pay your bill late kind of communist arrangement doesn't exist here. * if you are a labour worker, you need to save like 500 years worth of your before tax income to buy a shitty & tiny apartment, that is right, you need to be start saving money before the independence of the communist US. * can't afford to buy? no worries, just rent, 3 months rent plus 1 month bond and 1 month rent equivalent agent fee is the typical condition here. factor in the cost to move, you pretty much need 6 months rent worth of money to afford to rent. * social housing you ask - people are going to laugh at you, that hasn't been invented yet. the state is the biggest land owner, residential land is auction to developers to build residential properties, why would any sane people working for the state to build social housing to undermine one of the largest income streams of the state? * can't afford to rent and there is no social housing? well, homeless is not an option as that deteriorate the quality of investment environment of your city. you will be dealt with like a piece of trash. angry about all these? well, they promote a few poster boys every year who managed to rise from the very bottom, they tell you something you probably heard it many times already - it is all about personal choices.
      - smcl 3y ago
        The UAW striking, and politicians showing support for unions is nothing new and doesn't suggest the USA is suddenly careening towards communism. You're either incredibly naive or have consumed some hysterical far-right news if you believe this.
tw1984 3y ago
That is not true. You are only allowed to setup businesses that are considered as in non-key sectors. Try setting a private gas station, or an ISP. Good lucky for that. The most recent example is the private tutor business, setting a private tutor business helping kids to do better in their maths exams can get you into big big trouble with the state. We are talking about an economy that didn't allow people to freely trade salt less than 10 years ago.
- throwaway4good 3y ago
  Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated. Granted. I don't know of any remotely reasonable (non-politicized) comparable study of economic freedom in China; my assessment is from talking to people (expats, entrepreneurs etc.) and just looking at what was going on. I remember sitting at a restaurant in a small village and watching a local drone company doing testing on the parking lot. 4 engineers and a drone the size of a small car. Just no way that would be allowed in anywhere in Europe.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    Europe isn't a bastion of economic freedom - a previous commenter described an absolutely egregious amount of government overreach pertaining taxes.
  - tw1984 3y ago
    > Around here setting up a sausage stand is tightly regulated. Around here, setting up a sausage stand requires special approval from the Prime Minister of the People's Republic of China. That is the exact special & emergency arrangement they put forward during COVID - people were allowed to setup such stands in selected areas during weekends to boost economy during COVID.
    - angra_mainyu 3y ago
      What about before COVID?
spacebanana7 3y ago
China is a has a very statist economic system with limited economic freedom for consumers. To list a few examples - urban property cannot be owned outright by any non-state entity, Chinese citizens are heavily restricted from investing overseas, and foreign investment/media consumption is also limited.
- somat 3y ago
  A question on the ownership of property in china and how it relates to the "nail" houses often seen in pictures. While I am sure real property ownership is weaker in china, The propaganda is I assume based on a exaggerated version of the truth. I also have never seen a public works project held up so dramatically by a single reluctant owner. Usually the government will claim eminent domain and poof, there go all your so called real property ownership rights, up in smoke. What is it about these cases that that a person in a communist state(where by definition no one owns property(yes I know this is not strictly true but for the sake of the question hear me out)) apparently has stronger property guarantees than than our ownership centric capitalist state?
  - spacebanana7 3y ago
    My concern with Chinese property rights is the nature of the land use right rather than the respect those rights receive for from the government. For example instead of buying a house in China, people obtain residential land use rights from the local authority for a period of up to 70 years [1]. AFAIK this translates to a 70 year leasehold contract in British, which isn't that much. It's very possible, in theory, to 'purchase' a house in China and have be unable to live in it within your lifetime. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_law_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_law_in_China
raverbashing 3y ago
This is easily proved wrong China is in position 154 https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking "Oh but China, oh but Europe, oh blah blah blah" try actually establishing a company on the lower bottoms of the rank
- angra_mainyu 3y ago
  https://www.networkideas.org/news-analysis/2005/06/index-of-economic-freedom/ https://www.networkideas.org/news-analysis/2005/06/index-of-... Using the Heritage Foundation's ranking is quite misleading.

emsign 3y ago

Economic freedom can only be enforced with police, meaning the state protecting the assets of the rich. So no, it's not as simple as you say.

FredPret 3y ago
My comment clearly, if not explicitly, makes allowance for police.
Brian_K_White 3y ago
Perhaps that is why they explicity did not even try to say it was simple, and explicitly spoke of a scale with stateless at one end and the optimum somewhere between the ends. there was no "as simple as you say"

ookdatnog 3y ago

Your entire argument is nonsensical, but this part: > With enough money you can buy all the others is particularly easily falsifiable. A billionaire in China does not have freedom of speech and cannot buy it.

FredPret 3y ago
I'd love to see your well-developed argument against economic freedom. Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world, or buy political influence at home.
- olivermuty 3y ago
  Did you just use freedom to escape the system as an argument in favour of the system? Or what is your point here?
  - justinclift 3y ago
    > Or what is your point here? That with enough money, all of the other needs can be fulfilled one way or another?
- huijzer 3y ago
  > Our billionaire Chinese friend can escape to the free world Unless you threaten the authoritarian leader via, for example, having too much money or saying negative things. Where, for example, is Jack Ma? He used to be very focal and visible until his disappearance, but nowadays he is allegedly peacefully enjoying his retirement with painting. According to Alibaba co-founder Joe Tsai, Jack Ma "is fine. He is lying low right now. I talk to him every day. I actually message him, we have our own messaging platform. He is actually doing very very well. He's taken up painting as a hobby. It's actually pretty good. I can show you some photos later." [1] I still haven't seen any interviews with Jack Ma since his dissapearance where is he is not surrounded by multiple guys in black suits. [1] https://youtu.be/KveMLJNhwkc?si=dGJbujD-57FlHpNP https://youtu.be/KveMLJNhwkc?si=dGJbujD-57FlHpNP
  - 3y ago

mindslight 3y ago

Yes, wealth can mitigate attacks on your freedom. But for everyone to financially maintain their other freedoms requires a degree of economic freedom not afforded by basically any country on earth. Instead we mostly have managed fiat currencies that are continually inflated, vacuuming real wealth towards a politically-connected center, and making it so that only a fraction of the population can ever be capable of amassing enough wealth to purchase freedom. So your argument is a bit specious in the world we actually have, and ignoring that it falls apart is a recipe for justifying oppression. Coming at it from another direction, I'd say that government guarantees of freedom are essentially non-fungible assets that resist the ability for lopsided/captured/coercive markets to financially strip them.