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Where I live (Sweden) it’s legal to use GitHub (with or without a VPN). But if I fail to report 138000 USD in earnings I’d still be in for a world of hurt: Firs

Where I live (Sweden) it’s legal to use GitHub (with or without a VPN). But if I fail to report 138000 USD in earnings I’d still be in for a world of hurt: First the tax authority would take about 100000-200000 USD from me. Then I’d be prosecuted for tax fraud. Nobody would be upset or come to my defense. Not saying I prefer the Chinese system, but it’s interesting that in this specific case it’s probably more lenient. EDIT: But I guess this guy didn’t have the option to report the income and pay his taxes? In that case it’s definitely another dimension of repression…

raverbashing 3y ago
> But if I fail to report 138000 USD in earnings I’d still be in for a world of hurt: First the tax authority would take about 100000-200000 USD from me. Then I’d be prosecuted for tax fraud And where in the world do you think this would not be the case? (except maybe in 3rd world countries with bribable authorities) (such a fine of 100k is probably on the higher end for most places though)
- throwaway10507 3y ago
  In most of EU, the tax authority first asks you nicely to fix your mistake, and only if you don't, they confiscate the owed amount plus a small fine (given that it's your first offense and they don't see it as intentional fraud). I used to have my life in serious disorder and they confiscated the owed tax three times from me. Never got fined more than $100, though I had to call and apologize the second and third time to have it reduced from ~$500.
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    Yeah, you're paying the tax owed, not much way around that unless you have allowed deductions or something else But the higher fines/criminal charge are usually for very, very egregious failures to pay
- jolmg 3y ago
  > And where in the world do you think this would not be the case? I think their point is precisely that this Chinese case might be more similar rather than different to the rest of the world. > (such a fine of 100k is probably on the higher end for most places though) In neither the Chinese case nor on the Swedish case does it seem to be a fine. It's rather a confiscation of illegal earnings, which is then followed by an actual fine.
  - throwaway10507 3y ago
    Confiscation of owed income tax - sure. But the earnings? That's draconian. It's not illegal to work for foreign companies, even in China.
- bjornsing 3y ago
  Sweden goes further than most western countries in this case though. For example, the European Convention on Human Rights prohibits dubble punishment for a single crime. Most European countries interpret this to mean that you can be either criminally prosecuted, or administratively sanctioned with "extra tax", but not both. Sweden however has a fondness for doing both. So in Sweden a very realistic scenario in this case is that this guy goes to prison for half a year. During that time the tax authority decides he owes 100000 USD in taxes, and 100000 USD in "extra taxes". Whether he has the money or not is irrelevant. If it's more than he made, that's irrelevant. And the interest on those 200000 USD is 18.75%. Also, you can't declare personal bankruptcy in Sweden, so this guy is essentially turned into a slave of the government: whatever money he makes is taken from him, except for a very small amount necessary to "exist". If he is a good slave for five years, his debts can be discharged. If not, then he's stuck in this situation forever. It's game over, economically. Also, Sweden probably has a more efficient "bailiff authority" (Kronofogdemyndigheten) than most countries. So game over really is game over. They will come to your home, with the police if necessary, and take everything of value there.
  - concordDance 3y ago
    Thats actually horrifying.
    - spacebanana7 3y ago
      The lack of bankruptcy is especially scary.
  - winter_blue 3y ago
    > Also, Sweden probably has a more efficient "bailiff authority" (Kronofogdemyndigheten) than most countries. So game over really is game over. They will come to your home, with the police if necessary, and take everything of value there. This might be a bit of silly question: but if someone were to “stand their ground” and try to defend themselves (with weapons they somehow obtained / 3D-printed / etc.) I imagine the Swedish authorities also wouldn’t hesitate in gunning that person down, right?
FredPret 3y ago
Economic freedom is second among the freedoms only after physical safety. With enough money you can buy all the others, and all the others exist primarily to ensure you can be safe and end up with enough money. This fact is ignored, overlooked, or pooh-poohed by those whose ambitions for society requires a large state. To maximize human freedom, there's an optimal balance to be struck between a stateless society and one that'll prosecute you as you described. I think the optimum is far toward the "free" end of the spectrum.
- throwaway4good 3y ago
  China is very high on the economic freedom scale (setting up a business, taxation etc.); probably much higher than the US or Europe.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    Sure, so economically free, besides the communism part
    - tw1984 3y ago
      China is a typical state capitalist country. You don't have the state looking after the wellfares of individuals, you are on your own all the time. $0 handouts during covid pandemic is the best example. You don't have unions stopping businesses and asking better pay & less working hours for its members. Talking about communism, the US is getting there fast. Look at its current union movement, with both 2024 US presidential election candidates openly supporting those unions, man, it is communism, it is cancer.
      - otikik 3y ago
        If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak, with a couple exceptions (Police Unions). The US is way more similar to communism in the way the ultrarich accumulate benefits but socialize loses. Another big example is the military, which is essentially a socialist organization.
datadeft 3y ago
"If you crush a cockroach, you're a hero. If you crush a beautiful butterfly, you're a villain. Morals have aesthetic criteria." This applies to the context of west vs China. Everything China does is because of oppression and everything the west does is because of democracy and protecting you.
- ignoramous 3y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_miser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_miser Folks prefer simple mental models and tend to place their faith in simpler beliefs. Kahneman warned us. In fact, the replication crisis sort of proved him right (and wrong at the same time?)
- tibbydudeza 3y ago
  That is such an awesome quote - where does it come from ???.
  - datadeft 3y ago
    Allegedly: https://library.fairmontstate.edu/news/1/Friedrich-Nietzsche-Morality-and-Truth https://library.fairmontstate.edu/news/1/Friedrich-Nietzsche...
- imiric 3y ago
  Absolutes are far from helpful in this conversation. There's a fair bit of nuance in this topic, but it can be argued that a totalitarian regime whose primary interest is remaining in power will resort to more oppressive measures towards its citizens than one that at least has some semblance of respecting human rights and democratic processes. This doesn't mean that there aren't things to praise and criticize about both sides, but _overall_ one system of government is demonstrably more benevolent, to its own citizens, at least. What I'm really tired of, though, is everytime there's news about something worth criticizing about China, these comparisons with the West are mentioned. It only serves to muddle the conversation, which can be seen as the intent of whoever brings it up.
  - 3y ago
xkcd1963 3y ago
I don't see any correlation between your and the Chinese case.
pipes 3y ago
As far as I understand this is not about tax evasion, it's about "illegally" using a vpn to access GitHub which is blocked by the Chinese government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_GitHub https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_GitHub
rfoo 3y ago
> But I guess this guy didn’t have the option to report the income and pay his taxes? He has the option. I'm not sure if he did it though. The problem here is it was confiscated arbitrarily, it's not tax authority doing all that.

raverbashing 3y ago

> But if I fail to report 138000 USD in earnings I’d still be in for a world of hurt: First the tax authority would take about 100000-200000 USD from me. Then I’d be prosecuted for tax fraud And where in the world do you think this would not be the case? (except maybe in 3rd world countries with bribable authorities) (such a fine of 100k is probably on the higher end for most places though)

throwaway10507 3y ago
In most of EU, the tax authority first asks you nicely to fix your mistake, and only if you don't, they confiscate the owed amount plus a small fine (given that it's your first offense and they don't see it as intentional fraud). I used to have my life in serious disorder and they confiscated the owed tax three times from me. Never got fined more than $100, though I had to call and apologize the second and third time to have it reduced from ~$500.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  Yeah, you're paying the tax owed, not much way around that unless you have allowed deductions or something else But the higher fines/criminal charge are usually for very, very egregious failures to pay
jolmg 3y ago
> And where in the world do you think this would not be the case? I think their point is precisely that this Chinese case might be more similar rather than different to the rest of the world. > (such a fine of 100k is probably on the higher end for most places though) In neither the Chinese case nor on the Swedish case does it seem to be a fine. It's rather a confiscation of illegal earnings, which is then followed by an actual fine.
- throwaway10507 3y ago
  Confiscation of owed income tax - sure. But the earnings? That's draconian. It's not illegal to work for foreign companies, even in China.
bjornsing 3y ago
Sweden goes further than most western countries in this case though. For example, the European Convention on Human Rights prohibits dubble punishment for a single crime. Most European countries interpret this to mean that you can be either criminally prosecuted, or administratively sanctioned with "extra tax", but not both. Sweden however has a fondness for doing both. So in Sweden a very realistic scenario in this case is that this guy goes to prison for half a year. During that time the tax authority decides he owes 100000 USD in taxes, and 100000 USD in "extra taxes". Whether he has the money or not is irrelevant. If it's more than he made, that's irrelevant. And the interest on those 200000 USD is 18.75%. Also, you can't declare personal bankruptcy in Sweden, so this guy is essentially turned into a slave of the government: whatever money he makes is taken from him, except for a very small amount necessary to "exist". If he is a good slave for five years, his debts can be discharged. If not, then he's stuck in this situation forever. It's game over, economically. Also, Sweden probably has a more efficient "bailiff authority" (Kronofogdemyndigheten) than most countries. So game over really is game over. They will come to your home, with the police if necessary, and take everything of value there.
- concordDance 3y ago
  Thats actually horrifying.
  - spacebanana7 3y ago
    The lack of bankruptcy is especially scary.
- winter_blue 3y ago
  > Also, Sweden probably has a more efficient "bailiff authority" (Kronofogdemyndigheten) than most countries. So game over really is game over. They will come to your home, with the police if necessary, and take everything of value there. This might be a bit of silly question: but if someone were to “stand their ground” and try to defend themselves (with weapons they somehow obtained / 3D-printed / etc.) I imagine the Swedish authorities also wouldn’t hesitate in gunning that person down, right?

FredPret 3y ago

Economic freedom is second among the freedoms only after physical safety. With enough money you can buy all the others, and all the others exist primarily to ensure you can be safe and end up with enough money. This fact is ignored, overlooked, or pooh-poohed by those whose ambitions for society requires a large state. To maximize human freedom, there's an optimal balance to be struck between a stateless society and one that'll prosecute you as you described. I think the optimum is far toward the "free" end of the spectrum.

throwaway4good 3y ago
China is very high on the economic freedom scale (setting up a business, taxation etc.); probably much higher than the US or Europe.
- FredPret 3y ago
  Sure, so economically free, besides the communism part
  - tw1984 3y ago
    China is a typical state capitalist country. You don't have the state looking after the wellfares of individuals, you are on your own all the time. $0 handouts during covid pandemic is the best example. You don't have unions stopping businesses and asking better pay & less working hours for its members. Talking about communism, the US is getting there fast. Look at its current union movement, with both 2024 US presidential election candidates openly supporting those unions, man, it is communism, it is cancer.
    - otikik 3y ago
      If you want to make the point that the US is communist, unions are not a great example - they are few and very weak, with a couple exceptions (Police Unions). The US is way more similar to communism in the way the ultrarich accumulate benefits but socialize loses. Another big example is the military, which is essentially a socialist organization.

datadeft 3y ago

"If you crush a cockroach, you're a hero. If you crush a beautiful butterfly, you're a villain. Morals have aesthetic criteria." This applies to the context of west vs China. Everything China does is because of oppression and everything the west does is because of democracy and protecting you.

ignoramous 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_miser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_miser Folks prefer simple mental models and tend to place their faith in simpler beliefs. Kahneman warned us. In fact, the replication crisis sort of proved him right (and wrong at the same time?)
tibbydudeza 3y ago
That is such an awesome quote - where does it come from ???.
- datadeft 3y ago
  Allegedly: https://library.fairmontstate.edu/news/1/Friedrich-Nietzsche-Morality-and-Truth https://library.fairmontstate.edu/news/1/Friedrich-Nietzsche...
imiric 3y ago
Absolutes are far from helpful in this conversation. There's a fair bit of nuance in this topic, but it can be argued that a totalitarian regime whose primary interest is remaining in power will resort to more oppressive measures towards its citizens than one that at least has some semblance of respecting human rights and democratic processes. This doesn't mean that there aren't things to praise and criticize about both sides, but _overall_ one system of government is demonstrably more benevolent, to its own citizens, at least. What I'm really tired of, though, is everytime there's news about something worth criticizing about China, these comparisons with the West are mentioned. It only serves to muddle the conversation, which can be seen as the intent of whoever brings it up.
- 3y ago

xkcd1963 3y ago

I don't see any correlation between your and the Chinese case.

pipes 3y ago

As far as I understand this is not about tax evasion, it's about "illegally" using a vpn to access GitHub which is blocked by the Chinese government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_GitHub https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_GitHub

rfoo 3y ago

> But I guess this guy didn’t have the option to report the income and pay his taxes? He has the option. I'm not sure if he did it though. The problem here is it was confiscated arbitrarily, it's not tax authority doing all that.