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Would anyone start a new project with Rails today? If someone suggested using Rails for a new project to me today, I would show them the door. There are so ma

Would anyone start a new project with Rails today? If someone suggested using Rails for a new project to me today, I would show them the door. There are so many more mature frameworks in more robust and performant languages. IMO the only reason to use Rails today is if you’re too uncurious to learn something better.

roboben 3y ago
Please name a few with the same comfort of having most things built-in. One example: database migrations. In the JS world it is knex all over and it is much less comfortable than ActiveRecord.
- arrowsmith 3y ago
  Phoenix
  - michaelteter 3y ago
    With Ash, even more attractive.
    - arrowsmith 3y ago
      I really need to check Ash out, it seems be a rising star!
- Rapzid 3y ago
  Personally I would rather use Fastify+MikroORM. Or Asp.Net. Or Flask with SqlAlchemy + the migration and validation libs(marshmallow?) Or whatever is good in Golang.
  - fredrikholm 3y ago
    > Or whatever is good in Golang. There is no such thing in Go and most likely will never be given the perspectives held by the greater Go community (less is more). Comparatively, the Ruby community is the complete inverse: any perceived friction can and should be abstracted to be (subjectively) nicer. It's why some people love the language, and it's also why some people dislike the language.
  - 0xblinq 3y ago
    And none of those combinations reach 5% of the features Rails provides. These answers are incomplete and hide the underlying problem: You have to tie together 10s of third party libraries or services, or alternatively reinvent the wheel and implement everything from scratch. That's the point.
    - Rapzid 3y ago
      Asp.Net has 5% of the features of Rails? Which 5%? What of the 95% missing do you need?
      - 0xblinq 3y ago
        Sorry, I don’t know anything about Asp.net. My comment definitely applies to the other two options you listed.
- winrid 3y ago
  I wonder if anyone here has used ebean and the generated db migrations? I was looking for a java ORM that's like Django's ORM with the built in generated migrations tool which is great for a lot of projects - it seems like ebean is pretty much the best choice? and now with virtual threads I don't have to worry that it's not reactive.
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  ASP.NET Core. And database migrations are not uncommon in web frameworks at all.
- neonsunset 3y ago
  Easily ASP.NET Core + EF Core combo thanks to strong typing which is a developer productivity boost in back-end, and performance on the opposite end of spectrum suitable for high scalability. (but then again, if you are doing complex migrations through framework in-language, you might be setting yourself up for failure)
gherkinnn 3y ago
Why not? I have seen or worked on too many projects that would have been better off using Rails/Laravel/Django instead of whatever cobbled together mess was chosen instead. Not saying that those are the best choice under all circumstances but they certainly aren’t wrong.
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  The alternative to Rails is not "cobbled together mess".
  - gherkinnn 3y ago
    It is not, no. But for whatever reason too many people gravitate to an unreasonably bloated and badly constructed mess of tools and things and services. All for the sake of planet scale.
  - 0xblinq 3y ago
    It's either a cobbled together mess or reinventing the wheel (framework). There are not many more options.
crystaln 3y ago
Looking at the new Hotwire stuff. It’s neat from a technical perspective but looks dreadful to me. Why double down on a sloppy backend language when hardly any of the needed logic for a web application is backend? Especially when the alternatives include a full stack of TypeScript, a robust, performant, strongly typed, fantastically tooled language? I was an RoR developer for a decade. These code bases do not age well. The test requirements of loosely typed languages are so much greater. The lack of ability to automate refactors alone is enough to avoid ruby.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  What would be fully stack TS alternative to rails?
  - 0xblinq 3y ago
    Ha, that's the problem! Everyone will give you a different list of 143 packages (minimum). Also, the list they gave you will be different next month.
- spariev 3y ago
  Last time I checked it is perfectly possible to use anything including TS via jsbundling-rails and esbuild, so honestly I don’t understand what is the problem here. I’m also on a fence re Hotwire, but apparently it works for them in Basecamp and Hey, so that’s what they are investing into. Anecdotally, recently in Ruby shops I see an increase in new projects using Hotwire as a push back against bloated and hard to maintain React front ends and people are delighted how everything is easier now. RoR codebases are not the only ones which did not age well, I’ve seen quite a few React/NextJs legacy projects I would prefer not to touch at all. So I don’t think technology is the main culprit here.
- 0xblinq 3y ago
  In my experience codebases that do not age well tell more about the developers and the managers than the tech stack. I've seen marvels and disasters in every stack.
throwthrow5643 3y ago
Python is slower than ruby.
gls2ro 3y ago
> There are so many more mature frameworks Please name "many more mature" frameworks. I am curious about how many web frameworks are still actively maintained today. Please note for me, mature also includes age. So you have to state frameworks that are at least older than 2005 (I would also accept created in 2005).
Alifatisk 3y ago
Rails is great for new projects, the opinionated structure and the Convention over Configuration is what makes it scale well!

roboben 3y ago

Please name a few with the same comfort of having most things built-in. One example: database migrations. In the JS world it is knex all over and it is much less comfortable than ActiveRecord.

arrowsmith 3y ago
Phoenix
- michaelteter 3y ago
  With Ash, even more attractive.
  - arrowsmith 3y ago
    I really need to check Ash out, it seems be a rising star!
Rapzid 3y ago
Personally I would rather use Fastify+MikroORM. Or Asp.Net. Or Flask with SqlAlchemy + the migration and validation libs(marshmallow?) Or whatever is good in Golang.
- fredrikholm 3y ago
  > Or whatever is good in Golang. There is no such thing in Go and most likely will never be given the perspectives held by the greater Go community (less is more). Comparatively, the Ruby community is the complete inverse: any perceived friction can and should be abstracted to be (subjectively) nicer. It's why some people love the language, and it's also why some people dislike the language.
- 0xblinq 3y ago
  And none of those combinations reach 5% of the features Rails provides. These answers are incomplete and hide the underlying problem: You have to tie together 10s of third party libraries or services, or alternatively reinvent the wheel and implement everything from scratch. That's the point.
  - Rapzid 3y ago
    Asp.Net has 5% of the features of Rails? Which 5%? What of the 95% missing do you need?
    - 0xblinq 3y ago
      Sorry, I don’t know anything about Asp.net. My comment definitely applies to the other two options you listed.
winrid 3y ago
I wonder if anyone here has used ebean and the generated db migrations? I was looking for a java ORM that's like Django's ORM with the built in generated migrations tool which is great for a lot of projects - it seems like ebean is pretty much the best choice? and now with virtual threads I don't have to worry that it's not reactive.
mvdtnz 3y ago
ASP.NET Core. And database migrations are not uncommon in web frameworks at all.
neonsunset 3y ago
Easily ASP.NET Core + EF Core combo thanks to strong typing which is a developer productivity boost in back-end, and performance on the opposite end of spectrum suitable for high scalability. (but then again, if you are doing complex migrations through framework in-language, you might be setting yourself up for failure)

gherkinnn 3y ago

Why not? I have seen or worked on too many projects that would have been better off using Rails/Laravel/Django instead of whatever cobbled together mess was chosen instead. Not saying that those are the best choice under all circumstances but they certainly aren’t wrong.

mvdtnz 3y ago
The alternative to Rails is not "cobbled together mess".
- gherkinnn 3y ago
  It is not, no. But for whatever reason too many people gravitate to an unreasonably bloated and badly constructed mess of tools and things and services. All for the sake of planet scale.
- 0xblinq 3y ago
  It's either a cobbled together mess or reinventing the wheel (framework). There are not many more options.

crystaln 3y ago

Looking at the new Hotwire stuff. It’s neat from a technical perspective but looks dreadful to me. Why double down on a sloppy backend language when hardly any of the needed logic for a web application is backend? Especially when the alternatives include a full stack of TypeScript, a robust, performant, strongly typed, fantastically tooled language? I was an RoR developer for a decade. These code bases do not age well. The test requirements of loosely typed languages are so much greater. The lack of ability to automate refactors alone is enough to avoid ruby.

wiseowise 3y ago
What would be fully stack TS alternative to rails?
- 0xblinq 3y ago
  Ha, that's the problem! Everyone will give you a different list of 143 packages (minimum). Also, the list they gave you will be different next month.
spariev 3y ago
Last time I checked it is perfectly possible to use anything including TS via jsbundling-rails and esbuild, so honestly I don’t understand what is the problem here. I’m also on a fence re Hotwire, but apparently it works for them in Basecamp and Hey, so that’s what they are investing into. Anecdotally, recently in Ruby shops I see an increase in new projects using Hotwire as a push back against bloated and hard to maintain React front ends and people are delighted how everything is easier now. RoR codebases are not the only ones which did not age well, I’ve seen quite a few React/NextJs legacy projects I would prefer not to touch at all. So I don’t think technology is the main culprit here.
0xblinq 3y ago
In my experience codebases that do not age well tell more about the developers and the managers than the tech stack. I've seen marvels and disasters in every stack.

throwthrow5643 3y ago

Python is slower than ruby.

gls2ro 3y ago

> There are so many more mature frameworks Please name "many more mature" frameworks. I am curious about how many web frameworks are still actively maintained today. Please note for me, mature also includes age. So you have to state frameworks that are at least older than 2005 (I would also accept created in 2005).

Alifatisk 3y ago

Rails is great for new projects, the opinionated structure and the Convention over Configuration is what makes it scale well!