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>if they cheat they are only cheating themselves anyways. I've heard people say this a lot. It's a very old-school liberal arts perspective that doesn't fit wi

>if they cheat they are only cheating themselves anyways. I've heard people say this a lot. It's a very old-school liberal arts perspective that doesn't fit with the modern world. In practice, for most students, education is a third-place benefit of university behind 1. the certificate and 2. networking.

fzzzy 3y ago
So then who cares if they got an education? If they want to pay for 1 and 2 but didn't get an education, why does it matter.
- itishappy 3y ago
  Universities care. They can't charge as much for just 1 & 2. The rest of us might too, if we expect "I have a degree in X from Y university" to imply some level of competence.
- btilly 3y ago
  People who see education as a valuable credential care. And yes, there are a lot of people who would like to outsource questions of competence to, "Do you have the credentials that I am looking for?" Any cynicism about the competence of people who do this is fully justified. But conversely, it isn't the worst approach to take to evaluating people when you personally lack competence. As an example, I would never hire a programmer based on credentials. But it is often the first and only thing that I look for in a random doctor visit.
- ziddoap 3y ago
  If I go to my doctor, or counsellor, or engineer, or mechanic, or... the list goes on... I care that they actually got an education rather than cheated their way through it. These are all things I can't personally judge competence in, because I'm not competent in medicine, psychology, engineering, etc. The most reasonable way for me to judge competence is whether an accredited school vouches for them via a degree.
- billy99k 3y ago
  Do you want to compete with someone for a job that cheated to get an education and got the job over you? By allowing this to continue, it will just add to the further decline of society.
  - shadowgovt 3y ago
    Depends on what we mean by "competition" here. If they're at another firm... Yes! My company of people who actually know the stuff the certificates say they know will run circles around them in the market. But if we're talking someone the company just hired who is now my responsibility... Not so much.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
analog31 3y ago
If students believe that these are their only options, they are either tragically misled, or misleading themselves.
- Miraste 3y ago
  I don't follow. Could you expand on that?
  - analog31 3y ago
    I perceive a widespread, cynical belief that the primary purposes of higher education are things like signaling, credentials, and networking. Students who accept this belief are whom I refer to as tragically misled. It's not unthinkable that they're in the majority. On the other hand, I think a fructifying education is up for grabs at virtually any college. I told my kids that a large state university is like a tiny elite academy, hidden in plain sight within a giant party school. Don't get me wrong, I know many people had bad college experiences, and that higher education is ripe for reform.
yohannparis 3y ago
Again, this is a north-americas point of view where most universities and colleges are "private" businesses.
- tatersolid 3y ago
  As I recall from my kid’s college search, the majority of US college students attend state schools or community colleges. While there are very many private colleges in number, they are each usually much smaller than state schools in enrollment. Private schools are also vastly outnumbered by community colleges, even though community colleges are on average smaller in enrollment..
  - yohannparis 3y ago
    I am really glad to hear that!
seabass-labrax 3y ago
It's a curious choice to call the liberal arts "they are only cheating themselves" attitude old-school. One could debate whether the certificate-motivated or culture-motivated type of university came first. I suspect that advanced hunter-gatherer and early agricultural societies viewed education more as purely motivated by culture: basic useful life skills can be passed on informally within communities or families (so formal education is not strictly necessary for survival), and typical tasks would unlikely to be a risk to others if done incorrectly (making certificates valueless). However, the modern Western university could arguably originate from the Church (and Jewish institutions before that), in which the education would surely have been considered necessary to correctly interpret texts. In that context, the certificate is a reassurance to the general, uneducated public that they are being led by qualified spiritual leaders (the clergy). Once you get to the Renaissance and towards the Enlightenment era, it seems as if the increasingly secular focus of education yet again reduces the necessity of certificates and makes broad, 'polymathematic' science and culture more important. The certificates only become important in secular life again once the apprenticeship system breaks down in the late 19th century. Finally, the idea of a 'liberal arts' course seems to be a reaction to keep the spirit of the Enlightenment alive despite ubiquitous industrialisation, so in this light is both an old school and a new school of though, depending on how you look at it! These are my thoughts from a very British perspective, so I would be curious to know whether that fits with views from other cultures, such as East Asian or predominantly Catholic ones.
fnordpiglet 3y ago
I find the “liberal arts” thing weird. First, as a scientist with an engineering degree, I definitely feel if you cheat through school you’re only cheating yourself. In the hard sciences a lack of knowledge and ability is pretty easy to suss out. The degree gets you the interview, the network might open a door or two, but the education is how you get the job. And once you’ve got it, if you didn’t learn anything, you will be fired fast. It’s more likely in a liberal art you can fluff your way through life living a continuous con. But heres the thing - they still are cheating themselves. Because the only thing a certificate and a network based on lies gives you is hollow employment built on lies. The education is what gives you a career and a life worth living. So, maybe that’s old school, but I’ve rarely found old school wisdom to be wrong. It has, after all, withstood the filter of time.
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  I’m just glad people have stopped saying liberal arts students are the only ones who have learned to think critically
- 9dev 3y ago
  > The degree gets you the interview, the network might open a door or two, but the education is how you get the job. What a great way to respond. I couldn’t agree more.
  - yunwal 3y ago
    Unfortunately it’s not true for most positions in the tech industry, including the highest paying ones. All of these are game-able. Spend a month running through leetcode questions and learning some jargon, and it won’t matter whether you cheated your way through school, you’ll know enough to pass the interview. Even on the job people can often get away with not providing much value if they have a bad/apathetic/misaligned manager.
- AnnikaL 3y ago
  Are physics, chemistry, mathematics, and biology not considered "liberal arts"?
antifa 3y ago
I remember several classes I wish I could have taken, but classes aren't free and I was already overloaded with useless "required" classes.
ralphc 3y ago
It isn't all or nothing. Computer Science degree, and I regularly use the principles I learned in my CS classes, but the required English classes? Not so much. So some "cheating" wouldn't be cheating myself.

fzzzy 3y ago

So then who cares if they got an education? If they want to pay for 1 and 2 but didn't get an education, why does it matter.

itishappy 3y ago
Universities care. They can't charge as much for just 1 & 2. The rest of us might too, if we expect "I have a degree in X from Y university" to imply some level of competence.
btilly 3y ago
People who see education as a valuable credential care. And yes, there are a lot of people who would like to outsource questions of competence to, "Do you have the credentials that I am looking for?" Any cynicism about the competence of people who do this is fully justified. But conversely, it isn't the worst approach to take to evaluating people when you personally lack competence. As an example, I would never hire a programmer based on credentials. But it is often the first and only thing that I look for in a random doctor visit.
ziddoap 3y ago
If I go to my doctor, or counsellor, or engineer, or mechanic, or... the list goes on... I care that they actually got an education rather than cheated their way through it. These are all things I can't personally judge competence in, because I'm not competent in medicine, psychology, engineering, etc. The most reasonable way for me to judge competence is whether an accredited school vouches for them via a degree.
billy99k 3y ago
Do you want to compete with someone for a job that cheated to get an education and got the job over you? By allowing this to continue, it will just add to the further decline of society.
- shadowgovt 3y ago
  Depends on what we mean by "competition" here. If they're at another firm... Yes! My company of people who actually know the stuff the certificates say they know will run circles around them in the market. But if we're talking someone the company just hired who is now my responsibility... Not so much.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

analog31 3y ago

If students believe that these are their only options, they are either tragically misled, or misleading themselves.

Miraste 3y ago
I don't follow. Could you expand on that?
- analog31 3y ago
  I perceive a widespread, cynical belief that the primary purposes of higher education are things like signaling, credentials, and networking. Students who accept this belief are whom I refer to as tragically misled. It's not unthinkable that they're in the majority. On the other hand, I think a fructifying education is up for grabs at virtually any college. I told my kids that a large state university is like a tiny elite academy, hidden in plain sight within a giant party school. Don't get me wrong, I know many people had bad college experiences, and that higher education is ripe for reform.

yohannparis 3y ago

Again, this is a north-americas point of view where most universities and colleges are "private" businesses.

tatersolid 3y ago
As I recall from my kid’s college search, the majority of US college students attend state schools or community colleges. While there are very many private colleges in number, they are each usually much smaller than state schools in enrollment. Private schools are also vastly outnumbered by community colleges, even though community colleges are on average smaller in enrollment..
- yohannparis 3y ago
  I am really glad to hear that!

seabass-labrax 3y ago

It's a curious choice to call the liberal arts "they are only cheating themselves" attitude old-school. One could debate whether the certificate-motivated or culture-motivated type of university came first. I suspect that advanced hunter-gatherer and early agricultural societies viewed education more as purely motivated by culture: basic useful life skills can be passed on informally within communities or families (so formal education is not strictly necessary for survival), and typical tasks would unlikely to be a risk to others if done incorrectly (making certificates valueless). However, the modern Western university could arguably originate from the Church (and Jewish institutions before that), in which the education would surely have been considered necessary to correctly interpret texts. In that context, the certificate is a reassurance to the general, uneducated public that they are being led by qualified spiritual leaders (the clergy). Once you get to the Renaissance and towards the Enlightenment era, it seems as if the increasingly secular focus of education yet again reduces the necessity of certificates and makes broad, 'polymathematic' science and culture more important. The certificates only become important in secular life again once the apprenticeship system breaks down in the late 19th century. Finally, the idea of a 'liberal arts' course seems to be a reaction to keep the spirit of the Enlightenment alive despite ubiquitous industrialisation, so in this light is both an old school and a new school of though, depending on how you look at it! These are my thoughts from a very British perspective, so I would be curious to know whether that fits with views from other cultures, such as East Asian or predominantly Catholic ones.

fnordpiglet 3y ago

I find the “liberal arts” thing weird. First, as a scientist with an engineering degree, I definitely feel if you cheat through school you’re only cheating yourself. In the hard sciences a lack of knowledge and ability is pretty easy to suss out. The degree gets you the interview, the network might open a door or two, but the education is how you get the job. And once you’ve got it, if you didn’t learn anything, you will be fired fast. It’s more likely in a liberal art you can fluff your way through life living a continuous con. But heres the thing - they still are cheating themselves. Because the only thing a certificate and a network based on lies gives you is hollow employment built on lies. The education is what gives you a career and a life worth living. So, maybe that’s old school, but I’ve rarely found old school wisdom to be wrong. It has, after all, withstood the filter of time.

jncfhnb 3y ago
I’m just glad people have stopped saying liberal arts students are the only ones who have learned to think critically
9dev 3y ago
> The degree gets you the interview, the network might open a door or two, but the education is how you get the job. What a great way to respond. I couldn’t agree more.
- yunwal 3y ago
  Unfortunately it’s not true for most positions in the tech industry, including the highest paying ones. All of these are game-able. Spend a month running through leetcode questions and learning some jargon, and it won’t matter whether you cheated your way through school, you’ll know enough to pass the interview. Even on the job people can often get away with not providing much value if they have a bad/apathetic/misaligned manager.
AnnikaL 3y ago
Are physics, chemistry, mathematics, and biology not considered "liberal arts"?

antifa 3y ago

I remember several classes I wish I could have taken, but classes aren't free and I was already overloaded with useless "required" classes.

ralphc 3y ago

It isn't all or nothing. Computer Science degree, and I regularly use the principles I learned in my CS classes, but the required English classes? Not so much. So some "cheating" wouldn't be cheating myself.