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If there are any laws we need to pass is that credit card fees should be disclosed on all receipts and optional. Cash buyers should not get penalized for not us

If there are any laws we need to pass is that credit card fees should be disclosed on all receipts and optional. Cash buyers should not get penalized for not using a credit card.

runnr_az 3y ago
At least in PHX, I’ve been seeing a lot of businesses with a 2-3% surcharge for cards
- amrocha 3y ago
  Huh, I thought that wasn't allowed by the card issuer rules. Isn't that why a lot of places don't take Amex? Because the fees are higher but they can't add a surcharge to cover it?
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    The rules were changed, I believe in some of the financial legislation passed post-2008.
    - nulbyte 3y ago
      They were changed in settling a class action lawsuit. But nothing was stopping merchants from offering a cash discount which would have served the same purpose.
  - howLongHowLong 3y ago
    In New Orleans, I've seen it advertised as "cash discount." So I guess technically its not a fee on card transactions - it's a discount on cash ones.
- bradfa 3y ago
  Same here in upstate NY. Mostly smaller businesses like pizza joints and such but pretty much every gas station has been doing this for years. The only cashless place I’ve seen around here is the major sports stadiums, everyone else seems to greatly prefer cash over cards.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    That is for tax evasion purposes.
- blackshaw 3y ago
  Wait, is it common in the US for brick-and-mortar businesses to charge you extra if you pay by card? That doesn't happen in the UK.
  - howLongHowLong 3y ago
    Very common, in small, independent shops, though it often seems to be as much about avoiding taxes as avoiding the fee for the credit machine
    - blackshaw 3y ago
      Interesting. I don't think I've ever seen it here in Britain. Some smaller businesses might insist on a £5 minimum spend if you're not paying cash, but even that has become very rare since the pandemic.
  - arp242 3y ago
    We definitely did that in the Netherlands when I worked at a computer store. Credit cards are comparatively rare, and while "2%" doesn't sound much it's a significant fraction of our profit margin. On a €600 laptop or desktop we'd earn maybe €50 to €75. The €12 is a comparatively large fraction of that. We didn't actually make that much more money from more expensive laptops, so for a €1,000 model we'd typically also earn €50 to €75, and with €20 of that going to Visa... yeah. After factoring in costs for sales, warranty, rant of the store, etc. there is not much left. On one hand you can say "well, it's only €20", but on the other hand if everyone started paying paying by CC we'd pretty much go bankrupt.
    - glenneroo 3y ago
      The official Apple store in Vienna adds 2% to the price if using a CC (at least last time I was there). Then again I don't know anybody who even has a CC here - AFAIK they just aren't that common and they aren't even accepted in a lot of places (though that is changing). They also don't work as normal credit cards in the US i.e. you don't really get credit, since it auto-deducts what you owe from your bank account during the next billing period.
laurencerowe 3y ago
Credit card processing costs in the US are absurd. Interchange fees are around 2% on average vs a cap of 0.3% for credit cards and 0.2% for debit cards in the EU. But cash handling costs a substantial amount too. We should probably all be paying by debit card and charging extra for cash or credit card.
- piaste 3y ago
  Should be noted that in most of the EU cashback programmes are also not as big as in the US. Never heard of anyone getting "2% back from everything". That said, a middleman that takes a smaller fee is still much better for the economy than a middleman that takes in an oversized fee and then magnanimously hands back a chunk of it. Especially when that middleman is a worldwide oligopoly with far too much power. I try to use local e-payment systems whenever possible.
  - closewith 3y ago
    > Should be noted that in most of the EU cashback programmes are also not as big as in the US. Never heard of anyone getting "2% back from everything". Which, societally, is a good thing. Credit card rewards programmes are a tax on everyone that disproportionately affects the lowest earners who aren't availing of cashback.
  - shapefrog 3y ago
    > Should be noted that in most of the EU cashback programmes are also not as big as in the US. If they charge 100% on everyones transactions then my delux diamond card (sorry you dont qualify) can give me 200% cashback and everyone else can go f' themselves. Ahh the land of the free

If there are any laws we need to pass is that credit card fees should be disclosed on all receipts and optional. Cash buyers should not get penalized for not using a credit card.

runnr_az 3y ago

At least in PHX, I’ve been seeing a lot of businesses with a 2-3% surcharge for cards

amrocha 3y ago
Huh, I thought that wasn't allowed by the card issuer rules. Isn't that why a lot of places don't take Amex? Because the fees are higher but they can't add a surcharge to cover it?
- HWR_14 3y ago
  The rules were changed, I believe in some of the financial legislation passed post-2008.
  - nulbyte 3y ago
    They were changed in settling a class action lawsuit. But nothing was stopping merchants from offering a cash discount which would have served the same purpose.
- howLongHowLong 3y ago
  In New Orleans, I've seen it advertised as "cash discount." So I guess technically its not a fee on card transactions - it's a discount on cash ones.
bradfa 3y ago
Same here in upstate NY. Mostly smaller businesses like pizza joints and such but pretty much every gas station has been doing this for years. The only cashless place I’ve seen around here is the major sports stadiums, everyone else seems to greatly prefer cash over cards.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  That is for tax evasion purposes.
blackshaw 3y ago
Wait, is it common in the US for brick-and-mortar businesses to charge you extra if you pay by card? That doesn't happen in the UK.
- howLongHowLong 3y ago
  Very common, in small, independent shops, though it often seems to be as much about avoiding taxes as avoiding the fee for the credit machine
  - blackshaw 3y ago
    Interesting. I don't think I've ever seen it here in Britain. Some smaller businesses might insist on a £5 minimum spend if you're not paying cash, but even that has become very rare since the pandemic.
- arp242 3y ago
  We definitely did that in the Netherlands when I worked at a computer store. Credit cards are comparatively rare, and while "2%" doesn't sound much it's a significant fraction of our profit margin. On a €600 laptop or desktop we'd earn maybe €50 to €75. The €12 is a comparatively large fraction of that. We didn't actually make that much more money from more expensive laptops, so for a €1,000 model we'd typically also earn €50 to €75, and with €20 of that going to Visa... yeah. After factoring in costs for sales, warranty, rant of the store, etc. there is not much left. On one hand you can say "well, it's only €20", but on the other hand if everyone started paying paying by CC we'd pretty much go bankrupt.
  - glenneroo 3y ago
    The official Apple store in Vienna adds 2% to the price if using a CC (at least last time I was there). Then again I don't know anybody who even has a CC here - AFAIK they just aren't that common and they aren't even accepted in a lot of places (though that is changing). They also don't work as normal credit cards in the US i.e. you don't really get credit, since it auto-deducts what you owe from your bank account during the next billing period.

laurencerowe 3y ago

Credit card processing costs in the US are absurd. Interchange fees are around 2% on average vs a cap of 0.3% for credit cards and 0.2% for debit cards in the EU. But cash handling costs a substantial amount too. We should probably all be paying by debit card and charging extra for cash or credit card.

piaste 3y ago
Should be noted that in most of the EU cashback programmes are also not as big as in the US. Never heard of anyone getting "2% back from everything". That said, a middleman that takes a smaller fee is still much better for the economy than a middleman that takes in an oversized fee and then magnanimously hands back a chunk of it. Especially when that middleman is a worldwide oligopoly with far too much power. I try to use local e-payment systems whenever possible.
- closewith 3y ago
  > Should be noted that in most of the EU cashback programmes are also not as big as in the US. Never heard of anyone getting "2% back from everything". Which, societally, is a good thing. Credit card rewards programmes are a tax on everyone that disproportionately affects the lowest earners who aren't availing of cashback.
- shapefrog 3y ago
  > Should be noted that in most of the EU cashback programmes are also not as big as in the US. If they charge 100% on everyones transactions then my delux diamond card (sorry you dont qualify) can give me 200% cashback and everyone else can go f' themselves. Ahh the land of the free