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Why I Chose New York

141 points by michael_miller 15y ago

dr_ 15y ago
I live in the New York City area. The benefits you state are true however if you are in fact contemplating a start up your access to engineers in the Silicon Valley area are going to be far greater than in the New York City area. That may be changing but sometimes groupthink can be positive thing. It can help nurture and further develop an industry. You mentioned the finance industry being in New York however realize that the finance industry developed in New York because of groupthink.
- __abc 15y ago
  Everything I've heard is that it is near impossible to find talent in Silicon Valley. I've heard it's also the same in NYC ... shit, it's the same everywhere.
  - jellicle 15y ago
    With a quarter of the young population out of work, nevertheless the idea that it's "impossible to find talent" continues. It's like a new blacksmith coming into town and complaining that there aren't any trained blacksmiths for him to hire, while staring at 50 strong farmboys who are holding up "will work for food" signs. If only there was some way of teaching people new skills... but alas, no such thing exists.
    - untog 15y ago
      That takes time. We're in an industry that is (relatively) flush with cash right now, so it makes more sense to compete with other companies on salary than to take the time to train new employees. That may not always be the case.
    - carguy1983 15y ago
      > With a quarter of the young population out of work Yeah, well.. those are the untalented ones. Not everyone can do every job. Especially in technology. Sorry. It's hard to find good auto mechanics, too. And electricians, and true salespeople. And anything that requires skills and talent and practice and learning. This is really just a perennial truism, not anything specific to today.
      - eli_gottlieb 15y ago
        There are plenty of good software people out of work. Hello, nice to meet you! Life is weird, and hiring is a very difficult process for both sides.
    - gruseom 15y ago
      If only there was some way of teaching people new skills It's the other way around. If those farmboys you postulate don't have the initiative and aptitude to take up hacking, they're unlikely to be a great addition to a software team. The last thing you need is someone passively waiting to be told what to do and taught how to do it. It would be great to be proven wrong about this, but I've seen lots of examples of it being a problem and not one counterexample. If mainstream culture changes to one in which the idea of doing this work and being excited by it and making things with it becomes widespread, then one might see significant growth in the talent pool. If more creative sparks are flying around, the chance of one of your farmboys catching fire is greater. But that's a longer-term process. To become good at this stuff, people don't need training - they need inspiration.
      - nick_dm 15y ago
        In my experience most companies aren't interested in "initiative and aptitude". They are generally unwilling to look at people without a few years of experience already. I moved to NYC and started job-hunting in early 2011. I didn't have a background in software development but I had programmed in VBA for 18 months (pricing insurance), used R for my statistics masters degree project and had been dabbling in Python for around 5 years (all self-taught). Through direct applications, headhunters and networking at various meetup events I hunted for tech and tech/finance jobs for about eight months. While things would sometimes look promising, if usually came down to "we're really looking for someone with a bit more experience in X". I did manage to find some freelance work (for a Python/Django web startup) but they decided that rather than another backend programmer they needed someone who could do frontend development and system administration... After leaving NYC my sister got a call, "is your brother still looking for a job in New York?", and I ended up back here working as an accountant. I didn't have any experience in accounting either (though I had taken some classes in the past) but my new boss was happy to bring me in on a three month contract and see how things worked out (I got a permanent offer after a month and a half).
        gruseom 15y ago
        Yeah. I think the answer there is: fuck those companies. The sooner we start new ones that get this right, the fewer their days are numbered. But you may have missed my point by a couple degrees. It wasn't that companies should look at initiative and aptitude directly. It's that those are the things that drive you to acquire the skills that make you good. Then you can prove that you're good. How exactly to prove you're good, or for companies to tell who's good, is a billion (trillion?) dollar question that's in flux right now. But clearly it has more to do with showing work and less with weak proxies like years of experience (which may be years of doing things badly) or resumes (a skill uncorrelated if not inversely correlated with good programming). Since startups are starved for good hackers, somebody's going to figure this out, gain a huge edge, and pave the way for the rest. In the meantime, training/retraining programs are not going to increase the talent pool much. Something fresh like Hacker School might, though. Edit: in my opinion the eventual answer is going to be found by reasoning backward from Christopher Alexander's great question, "What feels more alive?" But obviously that isn't much help to someone in the situation you describe right now. So how did it work out? Do you like accounting or would you rather be programming?
  - acgourley 15y ago
    The hardest part about finding early stage talent in SV is that everyone is off trying to start their own company. The best part about finding early stage talent in SV is that everyone is earning their real world MBA the hard way, and when they succeed or fail at their venture they are going to be frighteningly well equipped to help you with yours.
- chpolk 15y ago
  How is access to VC's and other tech investors in NYC?
untog 15y ago
I hope this doesn't spark off another round of NYC vs. SV arguments[1]- there is no empirically "right" answer. Both have strengths and weaknesses, and the choice is all about what you want as a person, and what you want for your startup. Don't be fooled into thinking that SV will be the saviour of your dreams (the guy living out of his car comes to mind), but also don't think that NYC is an instant shortcut to making it big. I'm in New York and I wouldn't have it any other way. But I'm just one person. [1] I think these arguments are always worse because of the time difference. As I write this, it's 10am here in NYC and the thread is 100% New Yorkers. In three hours time Californians will start logging in and be horrified at the overwhelmingly one-sided view, and start responding.
- kurtvarner 15y ago
  I'm the guy living from his car. I never implied that Silicon Valley will make me a success (or be my savior). I simply said that there are a lot of advantages to being there. I don't think one can argue against that.
glenntzke 15y ago
Don't forget the cost of living in NYC - a cost that will be significantly increased by your networking and socializing habits. I live and work in the city and love it and the employment opportunity is enormous here. Your LinkedIn account will explode if it hasn't already.
- driverdan 15y ago
  The cost of living in the valley is on par with NYC.
  - weeksie 15y ago
    I would be extremely surprised if that was true. Even if you count not having to own a car or commute as long-distance in New York. I live in a 1 bedroom apartment that is 2550/month and _everything_ is more expensive here. A bottle of wine that might cost $9 in most places is $14 here. Bars and restaurants are far more expensive than they are elsewhere in the states, and city tax kills me to the tune of around $800/month.
    - mahyarm 15y ago
      Rent prices have reached about par according to padmapper.com. Mountain View, a somewhat shabby and boring suburb, that wouldn't be costly if it wasn't for SV, is the same price as brooklyn. Amazon Prime pretty much removes most of the price and sales tax inequality. The tax difference is real. But then again, the tax difference compared to austin or seattle is also very real too.
driverdan 15y ago
It's only Bay vs NYC? Why not stay in Austin? Every startup here is hiring. Why not Boston, Boulder, Seattle, or Portland? Not mentioning other cities seems shortsighted. Online startups can exist anywhere. If you're not interested in groupthink considering other cities seems very reasonable. I also don't buy your SF commute argument. There are tons of startups in downtown SF. You don't have to live in the bay area and work in the valley. If I were to move out there I'd live and work in SF, I wouldn't even consider SV.
- lightcatcher 15y ago
  What startups are in Austin? I did a quick google search and found this list: http://www.austinemerging100.com/list.php http://www.austinemerging100.com/list.php as well as this blog: http://austinstartup.com/ http://austinstartup.com/ Previously, I thought Gowalla was the only somewhat known startup in Austin, but they sold to Facebook. Are there any other somewhat known startups in Austin?
  - ericabiz 15y ago
    I work in an office with WP Engine and Other Inbox (recently acquired by Return Path.) There are plenty of startups here; the Capital Factory folks probably know many of them. I moved here from the Bay Area (with a 2-year stay in San Diego in the middle) and I'm really happy with the quality of life and the tech community here in Austin. I can buy a house and live comfortably here, and the taxes are far cheaper--important when you really start earning money!
  - mcguire 15y ago
    "What startups are in Austin?" The one you started. Nothing else matters.
    - untog 15y ago
      That's a charming premise, but it doesn't really work out in reality.
    - ericabiz 15y ago
tstegart 15y ago
This is great, I left NYC for many of the same reasons the OP cites as wanting to move there. Really, I should write a post on "Why I'm choosing the Midwest" NYC has so many women. Beautiful women. But if you're looking to have kids, settle down and move away to where your kid has his own lawn to play on, your odds drop close to zero. So many people date in NYC, so few commit for the rest of their lives. I was so naive when I moved there at 26, I thought I would be married within a year. All my friends had gotten married while still in college. NYC just ain't the place. Lack of a commute? Yes, but add in the time to get everywhere else. That party in Brooklyn? An hour. Finding somewhere, anywhere, where buildings don't dot the horizon and you feel at peace? Try a few hours. Enjoy the subway construction my friend. I will say that NYC kills when it comes to food. Its the best, unless you're trying to find a nice cheap bratwurst, then NYC sucks it up big time. But the Midwest makes up for it. I have a canoe, a giant deck bigger than my NYC apt with a grill on it and streets that get plowed. Midwest, I think you win.
- untog 15y ago
  I think this gets to the point of why these debates are useless when talking on a personal level- everyone is different. I'm 28, and I still don't want to get married. I have no problem with buildings dotting the horizon (when I want to leave the city, I fly away somewhere far, far away. Or go to Prospect Park). So, I probably wouldn't care too much for the Midwest. Everyone is different.
  - tstegart 15y ago
    You're right. Funnily enough, Prospect Park was where I realized I didn't like it there. I was enjoying a good run in the park with my roommate and telling her how great it was. Then I realized the only reason I was happy was that the park was completely empty: it was 10 o'clock at night and a downpour had just happened.
  - rayiner 15y ago
    > So, I probably wouldn't care too much for the Midwest. Hey, we have Chicago in the midwest you know. I'd wager more people here, as a percentage, live in skyscrapers than do in lower Manhattan.
rudiger 15y ago
You can argue that NYC is a better place to meet women than SF, but is it really because there's slightly more women than men in the general population? I think it's due to a variety of other factors: Different mindset of people in NYC than in SF (compare NYC's finance and fashion industries to SF's technology industry)... Better logistics in NYC than in SF (in NYC: 24/7 public transport, plenty of taxis, no car culture, and apartments nearby; in SF: BART isn't 24/7, taxis scarcer, many have their own vehicles, and people live farther)... What else?
robbiesh 15y ago
I love New York, and it definitely feels like the startup community is growing here. My only thought is that the startups in NYC may be a bit more "big payoff" driven than "creating value" driven. I honestly can't say for sure though because I haven't spent any amount of time in the Valley. Being totally self-promotional here, but I just made a video about moving to New York for a startup. Please don't take it seriously. http://blog.kevinroseeffect.com/post/20127362923 http://blog.kevinroseeffect.com/post/20127362923
vaksel 15y ago
It seems like NYC just seems like a hub, because people are already there and don't want to move. Very few people who decide to uproot to start their startup elsewhere actually choose NYC over SV. Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is, lets face it, most programmers are more or less geeks, so all this talk about the better night life and clubs, dating/mingling opportunities etc probably doesn't even apply. It's all about the person really. Someone outgoing, will find all of those even in the middle of nowhere in Kansas. And someone with social anxiety will have problems no matter where they are.
- saiko-chriskun 15y ago
  wow, you think engineers don't date? hahahah how naive can you get.
utopkara 15y ago
People have a huge capacity to adapt. For single people the flexibility is even more. I'd say, even if you go to Cicely, Alaska you'll get used to it and like it. Now, if you would like to innovate, and be part of something big, your chances of realizing those are very slim if you live outside the big magnets. SV, New York, Boston are fine but the opportunities diminish very fast as the density of tech companies gets smaller. There are interesting exceptions though. For instance the Raleigh-Durham area has a good combination of schools (fresh talent), and tech companies. If you are at that point in your life that you need to choose where you will pick a home, think carefully, and do your research.
bengl3rt 15y ago
1h 30m commute is only if you insist on busing down to Apple or Google every day. There are plenty of companies you can work for in SF that you can reach in much less time. And if you think it's going to be affordable to live five minutes walk from your office in NYC, think again. (disclaimer: lived in both)
- michael_miller 15y ago
  I agree with you on SF. There are certainly a bunch of great companies to work for there. However, at the risk of angering a lot of people, the majority of promising startups are in the South Bay. NYC is expensive, but not unbelievably so, especially when put next to SF. To live within a 5-10m walk of Palantir's office in the West Village is roughly $4k for a 2BR(so I'll be paying $2k/month). Certainly not low rent by any stretch of the imagination, but it is definitely affordable with an engineer's salary. Also, the difference in salary compensates for this cost.
  - bengl3rt 15y ago
    Cool! Best of luck to you and keep us posted :) And you're right about one thing - if I ever found myself suddenly single, I would move back to NYC in a hot second. As a (somewhat) sane straight guy with a bit of money, that dating scene can't be beat. Hands down.
  - qq66 15y ago
    I'm not sure where you're getting your information that the majority of promising startups are in the South Bay. The energy in Silicon Valley has been shifting northwards for the last 10 years. The majority of large companies are in the South Bay, but among companies less than 5 years old, there are as many great ones in SF as in PA/MV.
- fennecfoxen 15y ago
  What you need to do if you want to live in San Francisco and work in Silicon Valley: get a (stupidly expensive!) apartment near Caltrain, take an express train down (30-45 minutes, and work on the train), then get the rest of the way to work quickly (helps if your startup is near the train - mine is ~20 minutes' ride, not the greatest). It's probably not as good as you're getting in New York, but it's significantly better than 90 minutes.
benihana 15y ago
This article reads like a rationalization by a college student who is basing all of his knowledge of these places on second-hand accounts and stereotypes. Does this guy really think that San Francisco isn't diverse? Does he really not understand that he's going to be around engineers (the vast majority of whom are white dudes) all day anyway and that the diversity of the area has little to do with that? Does he really believe that all anyone talks about in SF is social media and daily deals? How about come back in 6 months after you've moved and list the preconceived notions you had that were wrong, and the ones you had that were right and how you like living in NYC? Because this kind of reads like it's going to be this way because this is how I expect it to be. Disclaimer: I'm moving to New York City in less than two weeks
- michael_miller 15y ago
  Thanks for the feedback! To be clear, I'm not critiquing SF. When I refer to Silicon Valley, I am talking about the south bay. My experiences are based on my anecdotal experience over the past 3 summers living in the south bay. Admittedly, I haven't lived in SF(only gone up for day trips), so I have no place to critique it. I will absolutely write up another blog post after 6 months of being in NYC, and let HN know how it went.
- GFKjunior 15y ago
  I have to agree with you. I'm a texas grad finishing up in May but moving to SF and this sounds like a kid who is going purely off of word of mouth. But he did say he has only stayed in the South Bay area, it's worlds apart from SF. Palo Alto to Sf is like Fredericksburg to Austin. What I found funniest was the stat about more women in NYC. The ratio is not really important, I've dated tons of girls in both and have found that it is easier in SF. SF has a diverse female population, and minimal competition as most of the guys are “window shoppers” with no game (read shy engineers) which makes a lot bigger difference than raw numbers.
simonsarris 15y ago
I have a feeling my own "Why I Chose New Hampshire" would not have the same traction on HN, though it would bear some similarity to this post. Maybe I should write it anyway. I live in an 1840's house that I love. I walk seven minutes to main street (and work) every day. I live a mere hour from the mountains, the ocean, boston, minutes from country. I don't have any wants, I just like programming and reading and making things. I live a simple life, I like to think. Yet I get an email from a recruiter once a week (or a little less often, some more personal invitation) who are thrilled to talk to me until the point that they find that I have no intention of leaving New Hampshire. Willingness to uproot one's entire life and move (to Silicon Valley), it seems, is a foregone conclusion to them and I never cease to astonish my correspondents by not wanting to go there. I don't begrudge them. But I don't understand why in the grand game of chess I would exchange 23 years of life for a single job. (At last one correspondent signed, "let me know if you ever decide to head west, young man :-)")
- tstegart 15y ago
  I got the same astonishment from my friends when I told them I was leaving NYC. "Why would you leave New York?" "Is there anything in Wisconsin?" One even told me if I wasn't happy in NYC, I should seek therapy, because there was clearly something wrong with me.
  - iron_ball 15y ago
    "When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford." --Samuel Johnson
    - tstegart 15y ago
      That's hilarious, its exactly the attitude in NYC.
    - wisty 15y ago
      "The truly educated man can never be bored" Arthur C. Clark, long before social media was invented.
SatvikBeri 15y ago
Having lived in both San Francisco and New York (and a dozen other places), I can attest that all the OP's points sound factually correct-dating is much easier for straight men, commutes are shorter, and there is a lot more diversity when it comes to careers.
cletus 15y ago
My previous team was split between Mountain View and New York. We'd travel back and forth. Don't get me wrong: I love the Bay Area. The weather for one thing is simply heaven. We'd often get into debates about this. My argument is that it is cheaper to live in New York than the Bay Area. The main reason for this is that almost anywhere you live in the Bay Area you will have a car. Between car payment, insurance, gas and maintenance you will more than make up for any difference in rent. Your only real option to living without a car is to live in SF. That means an hour commute minimum each way every day (on the bus). Sometimes it can double with traffic on the 101. You have to catch them when they're running (4-6 times in the morning and evening?). Or if you don't have a bus option it's Caltrain + bus. Caltrain runs every hour during the day (slightly more often in peak hours). Even if your bus has wifi and you can allegedly do work I'd rather not waste 2-3 hours of my life on it each day. Compare this to New York. Areas around the office (Chelsea, Meatpacking, West/Greenwich Village, Union Square) are expensive but I still have a second story (true) one bedroom walkup 7 minutes walk from work for $2000/month. A friend lives in Crown Heights in Brooklyn. Door to door will typically take him ~35 minutes. His one bedroom is $1000/month. How far afield are you going to have to go in SV to find a one bedroom for that price (or, worse, that price including the car cost, even adjusting for spending $100/month on a monthly metro card). And I'd much rather rely on the Subway (or the commuter trains for that matter) than anything in Norcal (although I found the combination of BART + buses fine in SF even though I knew many people who complained about them). It's like $2.25 to go anywhere in the city and it runs 24x7. Rent in Manhattan is certainly expensive but you don't need to live in Manhattan. You can choose to (as I have) but you don't need to. You can get a pretty nice apartment in Forest Hills and have a relatively easy run in on the E train if you wish. Williamsburg is full of hipsters but is convenient (except when the L train stops running, which seems to happen all too often). So rent aside, everything else is the same cost of cheaper. Food especially is cheaper. A Thai restaurant around the corner has $2-6 appetizer and <$10 entrees. A Malaysian place I like in Chinatown has ~$7 entrees. Why anyone cooks in this city is beyond me. On the way to work there are 3-4 laundromats. The one I go to is open from 7am-11pm 7 days a week and as long as I get them my clothes before about 1-2pm will have them back the same day, washed, dried, folded and sealed for <$1/lb. If you have a family you can stay in the city (expensive) or move to the commuter belt (as most people do). Long Island, upstate NY or NJ (or further afield at places like CT, PA) have good affordable options. If you're married and have kids you'll probably only need 1 car rather than 2 (since the trains will cover you during the week to go to work). New York really is great. Although if I weren't working for Google I'm not sure who I'd want to work for. Foursquare? Maybe but you're essentially banking on them getting bought out (admittedly, this seems fairly likely). Tumblr? Maybe. Amazon? I think they're out of the city somewhere. Palantir? Maybe. SV certainly has got way more choice.
collegeportalme 15y ago
Valley:NYC::Hollywood:Britain-hollywood Each has it's own problems... I respect your decision, but Valley will forever by Valley
chauzer 15y ago
[video] http://vimeo.com/39219306 http://vimeo.com/39219306
jrobbins 15y ago
You want tech, diversity, ideas, women? Come to LA! The startup culture in Southern California is very strong now.
- carguy1983 15y ago
  There's a lot of reasons to move to LA / Santa Monica, but I'd say for the women isn't one of them. The girls in NY are much friendlier, probably due to the fact that they outnumber men and most of them aren't from NY. In LA the men still outnumber the women (all you need to do is walk into a crowded bar to see this - it's almost as bad as SF, though not quite) and most of the women are originally from southern CA. Take that as you will. Having said all that, if you're married/relationshipped/gay?, you can't really beat it if you can afford it!
wickedchicken 15y ago
If the OP is at all interested in the industries he says he is, then NYC all the way. It is a better city than SF on virtually every metric except burritos and nightlife. The reason I left NYC was that it didn't have a vibe for "technology for technology's sake." If you're a more low-level engineer (knee-deep in circuits and C) then NYC is really going to push against you; the opportunities are fewer and the culture surrounding you values that less than financial sales or 'hustling' (Adafruit being a counterexample). You'd have to specifically hang out around Columbia, drive upstate, or grab the Fung Wah to Boston to get that kind of vibe. In the Bay you're immersed in it.
prgibbons 15y ago
Try Vegas. You can get a luxury 1 bedroom high rise condo on the strip for $1,500/month. Off strip a great 1 bedroom is $800-900 and it comes with an attached garage. The entire Vegas valley is only about 20 miles in diameter so you are never far from anywhere. Commute times are short and off strip, traffic is not bad at all. $65,000 in Vegas buys you the same quality of life as $100,000 in SF.
- MyNewAccount 15y ago
  " buys you the same quality of life" I guess you don't factor weather into quality of life.
  - prgibbons 15y ago
    112F feels great.... in the pool. That said, NY is really hot in the summer and really cold in the winter. I've been to SF and the weather seems too cold and gloomy (50 and overcast in August!!!!)
fjabre 15y ago
Why don't more hackers consider Los Angeles? Cheaper and easier to find housing than the bay or NYC hands down, better weather, and plenty of single women who jump at the chance to date guys that aren't actors and/or yoga instructors! Given, the tech scene in LA isn't great but it's not that far from SF and there are definitely some hackers around UCLA and the Westside. I love New Yorkers but New York City is a zoo. You're constantly fighting the crowds, the street noise, and there is an extremely high cost of living. Some people thrive in this environment. I however find that my blood pressure rises to unacceptable levels. In Los Angeles I know plenty of people with a yard and driveway living in nice walkable neighborhoods near the beach or in and around hollywood paying less than $1500-$1700/month.
- mahyarm 15y ago
  The Traffic, the Driving, the Sprawl. LA has a reputation of being a 24hr traffic jam.
  - fjabre 15y ago
    Traffic isn't as bad as everyone thinks. The sprawl is desirable if you want to live in a big city but still be able to afford a place with a yard and driveway.
    - waterlesscloud 15y ago
      11 years in LA here. The traffic is awful around rush hours, worst I've seen anywhere outside of DC. But off-peak can be fine. And, honestly, you just get used to it. You take it into account, everyone else takes it into account, that's how it is. The sprawl isn't as much of a factor as some might imagine. You tend to stay within 10-15 miles of home anyway, so it doesn't matter that there's another 50-60 miles of sprawl beyond that. Besides, it's not like SV is sprawl-free. LA is much bigger than SF, and that's mostly a benefit. More options for most everything. As far as dating, just avoid anyone in any way connected to entertainment and it's fine. I'm sort of kidding. Sort of not. It's cheaper than SV, for sure. Though the upper end can compete with the upper end of SF as well. It's a city where you can spend as much as you'd like, there's not really a ceiling. Los Angeles gets a bad rap culturally, but in reality it's second only to New York in just about any cultural way you'd care to name. There's a LOT of creative people here in just about every creative arena. One thing I really like about LA is that there's probably more people trying to live their wildest dreams than anywhere else on earth. I think that's admirable. Biggest downside? Weather. I hate the lack of rain. Something I hear a lot from people who are from elsewhere. Summers are quite tedious.
joshklein 15y ago
Lots of good pros/cons of New York mentioned in these comments, so just one thing to add I haven't seen mentioned: after 7 years living & working in Manhattan/Brooklyn, my network is saturated with people in a dozen different industries who all seem to have careers advancing at 2x speed of the people I know anywhere else. I consistently meet people in their late 20's and early 30's who are serious players in a wide variety of business and artistic endeavors. I don't have to go more than one degree of separation to find someone at the top of any field. I know less entrepreneurs here than in SV, but the cross-pollination in NYC is a big deal.
jrockway 15y ago
Don't forget about how expensive housing is in NYC. If you want to live in Manhattan and have ever lived anywhere else, to get an apartment that vaguely resembles what you consider an apartment, you're going to be paying $3000 a month. Recently, it seems, Brooklyn has realized that it is not very far away from Manhattan and the rents have gone up to match. In Chicago, I lived in a brand new building, downtown, and had an 820 square foot apartment for $1400 a month. In Brooklyn, I have about 500 square feet, no AC, no microwave, in a building built in 1883 for $2400 a month. And, I had to pay a broker two months rent for the privilege of renting their apartment. (Yes, Brooklyn Heights is a particularly expensive neighborhood and the commute time to Chelsea is less than from many places in Manhattan. But it's not a $1000 value-add from what I had in Chicago.) Ultimately, I can afford this because Google pays me a lot of money and buys me three meals a day. But if you are bootstrapping a startup, you probably don't have this much money to burn, and there's really no compelling reason to live in NYC unless you spend all your time doing social things. If you're programming, buy yourself a more comfortable apartment in Kansas City, or something. $2400 a month buys you the entire city :)
- jvm 15y ago
  Brooklyn Heights is literally the most expensive neighborhood in Brooklyn, which probably means it's the most expensive neighborhood in NYC outside Manhattan. If you cared about money you should not have moved there.
  - jrockway 15y ago
    Yes, it's pretty expensive, though DUMBO is more expensive. But you can get a lot farther out in Brooklyn without saving much money. Williamsburg, Park Slope, Ft. Greene, Carroll Gardens, Downtown Brooklyn all seem about as expensive as Brooklyn Heights, while being farther away from Manhattan and without as much subway coverage. My thought is: if you want to spend less than $2000 for a one-bedroom and live in a nice neighborhood with subway service less than a half-mile away, it doesn't matter where you live. It's not going to happen.
jballanc 15y ago
I think the elevator in my building is a perfect metaphor for New York city...bear with me... When we were first shown the building, all I noticed was that the walls of the elevator were covered in graffiti! The very picture of urban blight. A couple of months after we moved in, I took a moment to actually read the graffiti: "Bach!", "Ravel", "Beethoven sucks!", "Tchaikovsky 4 eva", and so on. Turns out, we live 2 blocks from the Manhattan school of music.
barce 15y ago
When I think of dating in New York as a straight male, my experience has been "the odds are good, but the goods are odd." I've lived there twice. If you are at the top of your game you can find whatever relationship you want anywhere.
noelwelsh 15y ago
I haven't travelled as much as some, but I've travelled enough to learn that nowhere has the monopoly on the best way of life. Australia has great weather and a relaxed outdoors lifestyle, but few opportunities in technology, not much cultural life, and an over-reliance on cars. London has amazing energy and cultural institutions, but it is crowded and expensive. Then consider that things which are important now might not be important in ten years time. There is no best place to live. There is just the best place to live for you right now.
OtisWildflower 15y ago
Enjoy the taxes, costs and restrictions! Plus, the movie talkers and the stench of public transit! I did the reverse (East coast -> Austin) and could not possibly be happier.
tnash 15y ago
Also on the plus side, a much lower chance of dying in a horrible earthquake.
owensmartin 15y ago
Sorry to offer the most trite comment possible, but how does a 22-year-old trying to pick up chicks constitute "hacker news"?
T-hawk 15y ago
One of the best places to live in New York is New Jersey. Large areas of Hoboken and Jersey City are just as easy for a Manhattan commute via the PATH subway or bus or even a ferry. Rent goes roughly 25% cheaper for similar digs, everything from basement studios to ultramodern luxury towers. Bonus: you don't pay NYC income tax, and NJ sales tax is less too. I've lived in NJ and commuted to Manhattan for essentially my entire professional life, and quite satisfied with it. I currently commute by ferry which is insanely pleasant compared to a subway.
otrofimo 15y ago
Michael, it is very interesting that you chose New York and I wish you all the best. I say that it is interesting because I chose to move from New York to San Francisco at the end of last year. One of the main reasons is the attitude of each respective city. New York will always have a special place in my heart as I grew up in lower part of brooklyn until I moved to Jersey in 7th grade. It was one of the greatest times of my life. I only returned to the city after I graduated college two years ago. Maybe it was a personal experience but after working in NYC(manhattan) I thought it was one of the coldest and most distant places I have ever experienced. It was the feeling of the city, for all the "if you can make it here you can make it anywhere" there is a lack of collaboration, it is selfish, it feels like people are only out for #1. There is this aura of being better than others, almost snobbishness, which is something I have yet to find in San Francisco. San Fran is also incredible in terms of the level of intellectual curiosity that you see in most people. Individuals and groups are building,creating, innovating. I don't remember who said it(maybe it was Paul Graham in Hackers and Painters) but there was a comparison of modern day San Francisco to Florence during the Renaissance. I tried to look for resources in New York, but it felt like I was always meeting the same kind of people. I found that people were just living, going to restaurants, talking celebrity gossip. There was no ambition to better oneself, there was no ambition to learn. There is ambition to make money though. Your point about groupthink is well noted. I would like to point out that artistically, culturally, and musically NYC and SF are not that different. SF is the city of free thinking and has spawned many radical movements (Summer of Love, Beatniks, LGBT social movement), and continues to be ripe with underground/subculture movements. I cannot say NYC doesn't have the Village, but it is a remnant of what it once was as it has undergone extensive gentrification. Either way these I think are two of the more open cities in the United States and have an environment where one in theory can succeed. Personally I believe that San Fran simply has a different mindset which is embodied in the people. You can be as successful as you want to be, just be wary of the environmental factors that may sway you into a lifestyle that makes you feel as if you are running in place
eli_gottlieb 15y ago
How did Boston-Cambridge somehow get completely overlooked? It seems like that used to be the East Coast start-up center, but now it's New York.

141 points by michael_miller 15y ago

dr_ 15y ago

I live in the New York City area. The benefits you state are true however if you are in fact contemplating a start up your access to engineers in the Silicon Valley area are going to be far greater than in the New York City area. That may be changing but sometimes groupthink can be positive thing. It can help nurture and further develop an industry. You mentioned the finance industry being in New York however realize that the finance industry developed in New York because of groupthink.

__abc 15y ago
Everything I've heard is that it is near impossible to find talent in Silicon Valley. I've heard it's also the same in NYC ... shit, it's the same everywhere.
- jellicle 15y ago
  With a quarter of the young population out of work, nevertheless the idea that it's "impossible to find talent" continues. It's like a new blacksmith coming into town and complaining that there aren't any trained blacksmiths for him to hire, while staring at 50 strong farmboys who are holding up "will work for food" signs. If only there was some way of teaching people new skills... but alas, no such thing exists.
  - untog 15y ago
    That takes time. We're in an industry that is (relatively) flush with cash right now, so it makes more sense to compete with other companies on salary than to take the time to train new employees. That may not always be the case.
  - carguy1983 15y ago
    > With a quarter of the young population out of work Yeah, well.. those are the untalented ones. Not everyone can do every job. Especially in technology. Sorry. It's hard to find good auto mechanics, too. And electricians, and true salespeople. And anything that requires skills and talent and practice and learning. This is really just a perennial truism, not anything specific to today.
    - eli_gottlieb 15y ago
      There are plenty of good software people out of work. Hello, nice to meet you! Life is weird, and hiring is a very difficult process for both sides.
  - gruseom 15y ago
    If only there was some way of teaching people new skills It's the other way around. If those farmboys you postulate don't have the initiative and aptitude to take up hacking, they're unlikely to be a great addition to a software team. The last thing you need is someone passively waiting to be told what to do and taught how to do it. It would be great to be proven wrong about this, but I've seen lots of examples of it being a problem and not one counterexample. If mainstream culture changes to one in which the idea of doing this work and being excited by it and making things with it becomes widespread, then one might see significant growth in the talent pool. If more creative sparks are flying around, the chance of one of your farmboys catching fire is greater. But that's a longer-term process. To become good at this stuff, people don't need training - they need inspiration.
    - nick_dm 15y ago
      In my experience most companies aren't interested in "initiative and aptitude". They are generally unwilling to look at people without a few years of experience already. I moved to NYC and started job-hunting in early 2011. I didn't have a background in software development but I had programmed in VBA for 18 months (pricing insurance), used R for my statistics masters degree project and had been dabbling in Python for around 5 years (all self-taught). Through direct applications, headhunters and networking at various meetup events I hunted for tech and tech/finance jobs for about eight months. While things would sometimes look promising, if usually came down to "we're really looking for someone with a bit more experience in X". I did manage to find some freelance work (for a Python/Django web startup) but they decided that rather than another backend programmer they needed someone who could do frontend development and system administration... After leaving NYC my sister got a call, "is your brother still looking for a job in New York?", and I ended up back here working as an accountant. I didn't have any experience in accounting either (though I had taken some classes in the past) but my new boss was happy to bring me in on a three month contract and see how things worked out (I got a permanent offer after a month and a half).
      - gruseom 15y ago
        Yeah. I think the answer there is: fuck those companies. The sooner we start new ones that get this right, the fewer their days are numbered. But you may have missed my point by a couple degrees. It wasn't that companies should look at initiative and aptitude directly. It's that those are the things that drive you to acquire the skills that make you good. Then you can prove that you're good. How exactly to prove you're good, or for companies to tell who's good, is a billion (trillion?) dollar question that's in flux right now. But clearly it has more to do with showing work and less with weak proxies like years of experience (which may be years of doing things badly) or resumes (a skill uncorrelated if not inversely correlated with good programming). Since startups are starved for good hackers, somebody's going to figure this out, gain a huge edge, and pave the way for the rest. In the meantime, training/retraining programs are not going to increase the talent pool much. Something fresh like Hacker School might, though. Edit: in my opinion the eventual answer is going to be found by reasoning backward from Christopher Alexander's great question, "What feels more alive?" But obviously that isn't much help to someone in the situation you describe right now. So how did it work out? Do you like accounting or would you rather be programming?
- acgourley 15y ago
  The hardest part about finding early stage talent in SV is that everyone is off trying to start their own company. The best part about finding early stage talent in SV is that everyone is earning their real world MBA the hard way, and when they succeed or fail at their venture they are going to be frighteningly well equipped to help you with yours.
chpolk 15y ago
How is access to VC's and other tech investors in NYC?

untog 15y ago

I hope this doesn't spark off another round of NYC vs. SV arguments[1]- there is no empirically "right" answer. Both have strengths and weaknesses, and the choice is all about what you want as a person, and what you want for your startup. Don't be fooled into thinking that SV will be the saviour of your dreams (the guy living out of his car comes to mind), but also don't think that NYC is an instant shortcut to making it big. I'm in New York and I wouldn't have it any other way. But I'm just one person. [1] I think these arguments are always worse because of the time difference. As I write this, it's 10am here in NYC and the thread is 100% New Yorkers. In three hours time Californians will start logging in and be horrified at the overwhelmingly one-sided view, and start responding.

kurtvarner 15y ago
I'm the guy living from his car. I never implied that Silicon Valley will make me a success (or be my savior). I simply said that there are a lot of advantages to being there. I don't think one can argue against that.

glenntzke 15y ago

Don't forget the cost of living in NYC - a cost that will be significantly increased by your networking and socializing habits. I live and work in the city and love it and the employment opportunity is enormous here. Your LinkedIn account will explode if it hasn't already.

driverdan 15y ago
The cost of living in the valley is on par with NYC.
- weeksie 15y ago
  I would be extremely surprised if that was true. Even if you count not having to own a car or commute as long-distance in New York. I live in a 1 bedroom apartment that is 2550/month and _everything_ is more expensive here. A bottle of wine that might cost $9 in most places is $14 here. Bars and restaurants are far more expensive than they are elsewhere in the states, and city tax kills me to the tune of around $800/month.
  - mahyarm 15y ago
    Rent prices have reached about par according to padmapper.com. Mountain View, a somewhat shabby and boring suburb, that wouldn't be costly if it wasn't for SV, is the same price as brooklyn. Amazon Prime pretty much removes most of the price and sales tax inequality. The tax difference is real. But then again, the tax difference compared to austin or seattle is also very real too.

driverdan 15y ago

It's only Bay vs NYC? Why not stay in Austin? Every startup here is hiring. Why not Boston, Boulder, Seattle, or Portland? Not mentioning other cities seems shortsighted. Online startups can exist anywhere. If you're not interested in groupthink considering other cities seems very reasonable. I also don't buy your SF commute argument. There are tons of startups in downtown SF. You don't have to live in the bay area and work in the valley. If I were to move out there I'd live and work in SF, I wouldn't even consider SV.

lightcatcher 15y ago
What startups are in Austin? I did a quick google search and found this list: http://www.austinemerging100.com/list.php http://www.austinemerging100.com/list.php as well as this blog: http://austinstartup.com/ http://austinstartup.com/ Previously, I thought Gowalla was the only somewhat known startup in Austin, but they sold to Facebook. Are there any other somewhat known startups in Austin?
- ericabiz 15y ago
  I work in an office with WP Engine and Other Inbox (recently acquired by Return Path.) There are plenty of startups here; the Capital Factory folks probably know many of them. I moved here from the Bay Area (with a 2-year stay in San Diego in the middle) and I'm really happy with the quality of life and the tech community here in Austin. I can buy a house and live comfortably here, and the taxes are far cheaper--important when you really start earning money!
- mcguire 15y ago
  "What startups are in Austin?" The one you started. Nothing else matters.
  - untog 15y ago
    That's a charming premise, but it doesn't really work out in reality.
  - ericabiz 15y ago

tstegart 15y ago

This is great, I left NYC for many of the same reasons the OP cites as wanting to move there. Really, I should write a post on "Why I'm choosing the Midwest" NYC has so many women. Beautiful women. But if you're looking to have kids, settle down and move away to where your kid has his own lawn to play on, your odds drop close to zero. So many people date in NYC, so few commit for the rest of their lives. I was so naive when I moved there at 26, I thought I would be married within a year. All my friends had gotten married while still in college. NYC just ain't the place. Lack of a commute? Yes, but add in the time to get everywhere else. That party in Brooklyn? An hour. Finding somewhere, anywhere, where buildings don't dot the horizon and you feel at peace? Try a few hours. Enjoy the subway construction my friend. I will say that NYC kills when it comes to food. Its the best, unless you're trying to find a nice cheap bratwurst, then NYC sucks it up big time. But the Midwest makes up for it. I have a canoe, a giant deck bigger than my NYC apt with a grill on it and streets that get plowed. Midwest, I think you win.

untog 15y ago
I think this gets to the point of why these debates are useless when talking on a personal level- everyone is different. I'm 28, and I still don't want to get married. I have no problem with buildings dotting the horizon (when I want to leave the city, I fly away somewhere far, far away. Or go to Prospect Park). So, I probably wouldn't care too much for the Midwest. Everyone is different.
- tstegart 15y ago
  You're right. Funnily enough, Prospect Park was where I realized I didn't like it there. I was enjoying a good run in the park with my roommate and telling her how great it was. Then I realized the only reason I was happy was that the park was completely empty: it was 10 o'clock at night and a downpour had just happened.
- rayiner 15y ago
  > So, I probably wouldn't care too much for the Midwest. Hey, we have Chicago in the midwest you know. I'd wager more people here, as a percentage, live in skyscrapers than do in lower Manhattan.

rudiger 15y ago

You can argue that NYC is a better place to meet women than SF, but is it really because there's slightly more women than men in the general population? I think it's due to a variety of other factors: Different mindset of people in NYC than in SF (compare NYC's finance and fashion industries to SF's technology industry)... Better logistics in NYC than in SF (in NYC: 24/7 public transport, plenty of taxis, no car culture, and apartments nearby; in SF: BART isn't 24/7, taxis scarcer, many have their own vehicles, and people live farther)... What else?

robbiesh 15y ago

I love New York, and it definitely feels like the startup community is growing here. My only thought is that the startups in NYC may be a bit more "big payoff" driven than "creating value" driven. I honestly can't say for sure though because I haven't spent any amount of time in the Valley. Being totally self-promotional here, but I just made a video about moving to New York for a startup. Please don't take it seriously. http://blog.kevinroseeffect.com/post/20127362923 http://blog.kevinroseeffect.com/post/20127362923

vaksel 15y ago

It seems like NYC just seems like a hub, because people are already there and don't want to move. Very few people who decide to uproot to start their startup elsewhere actually choose NYC over SV. Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is, lets face it, most programmers are more or less geeks, so all this talk about the better night life and clubs, dating/mingling opportunities etc probably doesn't even apply. It's all about the person really. Someone outgoing, will find all of those even in the middle of nowhere in Kansas. And someone with social anxiety will have problems no matter where they are.

saiko-chriskun 15y ago
wow, you think engineers don't date? hahahah how naive can you get.

utopkara 15y ago

People have a huge capacity to adapt. For single people the flexibility is even more. I'd say, even if you go to Cicely, Alaska you'll get used to it and like it. Now, if you would like to innovate, and be part of something big, your chances of realizing those are very slim if you live outside the big magnets. SV, New York, Boston are fine but the opportunities diminish very fast as the density of tech companies gets smaller. There are interesting exceptions though. For instance the Raleigh-Durham area has a good combination of schools (fresh talent), and tech companies. If you are at that point in your life that you need to choose where you will pick a home, think carefully, and do your research.

bengl3rt 15y ago

1h 30m commute is only if you insist on busing down to Apple or Google every day. There are plenty of companies you can work for in SF that you can reach in much less time. And if you think it's going to be affordable to live five minutes walk from your office in NYC, think again. (disclaimer: lived in both)

michael_miller 15y ago
I agree with you on SF. There are certainly a bunch of great companies to work for there. However, at the risk of angering a lot of people, the majority of promising startups are in the South Bay. NYC is expensive, but not unbelievably so, especially when put next to SF. To live within a 5-10m walk of Palantir's office in the West Village is roughly $4k for a 2BR(so I'll be paying $2k/month). Certainly not low rent by any stretch of the imagination, but it is definitely affordable with an engineer's salary. Also, the difference in salary compensates for this cost.
- bengl3rt 15y ago
  Cool! Best of luck to you and keep us posted :) And you're right about one thing - if I ever found myself suddenly single, I would move back to NYC in a hot second. As a (somewhat) sane straight guy with a bit of money, that dating scene can't be beat. Hands down.
- qq66 15y ago
  I'm not sure where you're getting your information that the majority of promising startups are in the South Bay. The energy in Silicon Valley has been shifting northwards for the last 10 years. The majority of large companies are in the South Bay, but among companies less than 5 years old, there are as many great ones in SF as in PA/MV.
fennecfoxen 15y ago
What you need to do if you want to live in San Francisco and work in Silicon Valley: get a (stupidly expensive!) apartment near Caltrain, take an express train down (30-45 minutes, and work on the train), then get the rest of the way to work quickly (helps if your startup is near the train - mine is ~20 minutes' ride, not the greatest). It's probably not as good as you're getting in New York, but it's significantly better than 90 minutes.

benihana 15y ago

This article reads like a rationalization by a college student who is basing all of his knowledge of these places on second-hand accounts and stereotypes. Does this guy really think that San Francisco isn't diverse? Does he really not understand that he's going to be around engineers (the vast majority of whom are white dudes) all day anyway and that the diversity of the area has little to do with that? Does he really believe that all anyone talks about in SF is social media and daily deals? How about come back in 6 months after you've moved and list the preconceived notions you had that were wrong, and the ones you had that were right and how you like living in NYC? Because this kind of reads like it's going to be this way because this is how I expect it to be. Disclaimer: I'm moving to New York City in less than two weeks

michael_miller 15y ago
Thanks for the feedback! To be clear, I'm not critiquing SF. When I refer to Silicon Valley, I am talking about the south bay. My experiences are based on my anecdotal experience over the past 3 summers living in the south bay. Admittedly, I haven't lived in SF(only gone up for day trips), so I have no place to critique it. I will absolutely write up another blog post after 6 months of being in NYC, and let HN know how it went.
GFKjunior 15y ago
I have to agree with you. I'm a texas grad finishing up in May but moving to SF and this sounds like a kid who is going purely off of word of mouth. But he did say he has only stayed in the South Bay area, it's worlds apart from SF. Palo Alto to Sf is like Fredericksburg to Austin. What I found funniest was the stat about more women in NYC. The ratio is not really important, I've dated tons of girls in both and have found that it is easier in SF. SF has a diverse female population, and minimal competition as most of the guys are “window shoppers” with no game (read shy engineers) which makes a lot bigger difference than raw numbers.

simonsarris 15y ago

I have a feeling my own "Why I Chose New Hampshire" would not have the same traction on HN, though it would bear some similarity to this post. Maybe I should write it anyway. I live in an 1840's house that I love. I walk seven minutes to main street (and work) every day. I live a mere hour from the mountains, the ocean, boston, minutes from country. I don't have any wants, I just like programming and reading and making things. I live a simple life, I like to think. Yet I get an email from a recruiter once a week (or a little less often, some more personal invitation) who are thrilled to talk to me until the point that they find that I have no intention of leaving New Hampshire. Willingness to uproot one's entire life and move (to Silicon Valley), it seems, is a foregone conclusion to them and I never cease to astonish my correspondents by not wanting to go there. I don't begrudge them. But I don't understand why in the grand game of chess I would exchange 23 years of life for a single job. (At last one correspondent signed, "let me know if you ever decide to head west, young man :-)")

tstegart 15y ago
I got the same astonishment from my friends when I told them I was leaving NYC. "Why would you leave New York?" "Is there anything in Wisconsin?" One even told me if I wasn't happy in NYC, I should seek therapy, because there was clearly something wrong with me.
- iron_ball 15y ago
  "When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford." --Samuel Johnson
  - tstegart 15y ago
    That's hilarious, its exactly the attitude in NYC.
  - wisty 15y ago
    "The truly educated man can never be bored" Arthur C. Clark, long before social media was invented.

SatvikBeri 15y ago

Having lived in both San Francisco and New York (and a dozen other places), I can attest that all the OP's points sound factually correct-dating is much easier for straight men, commutes are shorter, and there is a lot more diversity when it comes to careers.

cletus 15y ago

My previous team was split between Mountain View and New York. We'd travel back and forth. Don't get me wrong: I love the Bay Area. The weather for one thing is simply heaven. We'd often get into debates about this. My argument is that it is cheaper to live in New York than the Bay Area. The main reason for this is that almost anywhere you live in the Bay Area you will have a car. Between car payment, insurance, gas and maintenance you will more than make up for any difference in rent. Your only real option to living without a car is to live in SF. That means an hour commute minimum each way every day (on the bus). Sometimes it can double with traffic on the 101. You have to catch them when they're running (4-6 times in the morning and evening?). Or if you don't have a bus option it's Caltrain + bus. Caltrain runs every hour during the day (slightly more often in peak hours). Even if your bus has wifi and you can allegedly do work I'd rather not waste 2-3 hours of my life on it each day. Compare this to New York. Areas around the office (Chelsea, Meatpacking, West/Greenwich Village, Union Square) are expensive but I still have a second story (true) one bedroom walkup 7 minutes walk from work for $2000/month. A friend lives in Crown Heights in Brooklyn. Door to door will typically take him ~35 minutes. His one bedroom is $1000/month. How far afield are you going to have to go in SV to find a one bedroom for that price (or, worse, that price including the car cost, even adjusting for spending $100/month on a monthly metro card). And I'd much rather rely on the Subway (or the commuter trains for that matter) than anything in Norcal (although I found the combination of BART + buses fine in SF even though I knew many people who complained about them). It's like $2.25 to go anywhere in the city and it runs 24x7. Rent in Manhattan is certainly expensive but you don't need to live in Manhattan. You can choose to (as I have) but you don't need to. You can get a pretty nice apartment in Forest Hills and have a relatively easy run in on the E train if you wish. Williamsburg is full of hipsters but is convenient (except when the L train stops running, which seems to happen all too often). So rent aside, everything else is the same cost of cheaper. Food especially is cheaper. A Thai restaurant around the corner has $2-6 appetizer and <$10 entrees. A Malaysian place I like in Chinatown has ~$7 entrees. Why anyone cooks in this city is beyond me. On the way to work there are 3-4 laundromats. The one I go to is open from 7am-11pm 7 days a week and as long as I get them my clothes before about 1-2pm will have them back the same day, washed, dried, folded and sealed for <$1/lb. If you have a family you can stay in the city (expensive) or move to the commuter belt (as most people do). Long Island, upstate NY or NJ (or further afield at places like CT, PA) have good affordable options. If you're married and have kids you'll probably only need 1 car rather than 2 (since the trains will cover you during the week to go to work). New York really is great. Although if I weren't working for Google I'm not sure who I'd want to work for. Foursquare? Maybe but you're essentially banking on them getting bought out (admittedly, this seems fairly likely). Tumblr? Maybe. Amazon? I think they're out of the city somewhere. Palantir? Maybe. SV certainly has got way more choice.

collegeportalme 15y ago

Valley:NYC::Hollywood:Britain-hollywood Each has it's own problems... I respect your decision, but Valley will forever by Valley

chauzer 15y ago

[video] http://vimeo.com/39219306 http://vimeo.com/39219306

jrobbins 15y ago

You want tech, diversity, ideas, women? Come to LA! The startup culture in Southern California is very strong now.

carguy1983 15y ago
There's a lot of reasons to move to LA / Santa Monica, but I'd say for the women isn't one of them. The girls in NY are much friendlier, probably due to the fact that they outnumber men and most of them aren't from NY. In LA the men still outnumber the women (all you need to do is walk into a crowded bar to see this - it's almost as bad as SF, though not quite) and most of the women are originally from southern CA. Take that as you will. Having said all that, if you're married/relationshipped/gay?, you can't really beat it if you can afford it!

wickedchicken 15y ago

If the OP is at all interested in the industries he says he is, then NYC all the way. It is a better city than SF on virtually every metric except burritos and nightlife. The reason I left NYC was that it didn't have a vibe for "technology for technology's sake." If you're a more low-level engineer (knee-deep in circuits and C) then NYC is really going to push against you; the opportunities are fewer and the culture surrounding you values that less than financial sales or 'hustling' (Adafruit being a counterexample). You'd have to specifically hang out around Columbia, drive upstate, or grab the Fung Wah to Boston to get that kind of vibe. In the Bay you're immersed in it.

prgibbons 15y ago

Try Vegas. You can get a luxury 1 bedroom high rise condo on the strip for $1,500/month. Off strip a great 1 bedroom is $800-900 and it comes with an attached garage. The entire Vegas valley is only about 20 miles in diameter so you are never far from anywhere. Commute times are short and off strip, traffic is not bad at all. $65,000 in Vegas buys you the same quality of life as $100,000 in SF.

MyNewAccount 15y ago
" buys you the same quality of life" I guess you don't factor weather into quality of life.
- prgibbons 15y ago
  112F feels great.... in the pool. That said, NY is really hot in the summer and really cold in the winter. I've been to SF and the weather seems too cold and gloomy (50 and overcast in August!!!!)

fjabre 15y ago

Why don't more hackers consider Los Angeles? Cheaper and easier to find housing than the bay or NYC hands down, better weather, and plenty of single women who jump at the chance to date guys that aren't actors and/or yoga instructors! Given, the tech scene in LA isn't great but it's not that far from SF and there are definitely some hackers around UCLA and the Westside. I love New Yorkers but New York City is a zoo. You're constantly fighting the crowds, the street noise, and there is an extremely high cost of living. Some people thrive in this environment. I however find that my blood pressure rises to unacceptable levels. In Los Angeles I know plenty of people with a yard and driveway living in nice walkable neighborhoods near the beach or in and around hollywood paying less than $1500-$1700/month.

mahyarm 15y ago
The Traffic, the Driving, the Sprawl. LA has a reputation of being a 24hr traffic jam.
- fjabre 15y ago
  Traffic isn't as bad as everyone thinks. The sprawl is desirable if you want to live in a big city but still be able to afford a place with a yard and driveway.
  - waterlesscloud 15y ago
    11 years in LA here. The traffic is awful around rush hours, worst I've seen anywhere outside of DC. But off-peak can be fine. And, honestly, you just get used to it. You take it into account, everyone else takes it into account, that's how it is. The sprawl isn't as much of a factor as some might imagine. You tend to stay within 10-15 miles of home anyway, so it doesn't matter that there's another 50-60 miles of sprawl beyond that. Besides, it's not like SV is sprawl-free. LA is much bigger than SF, and that's mostly a benefit. More options for most everything. As far as dating, just avoid anyone in any way connected to entertainment and it's fine. I'm sort of kidding. Sort of not. It's cheaper than SV, for sure. Though the upper end can compete with the upper end of SF as well. It's a city where you can spend as much as you'd like, there's not really a ceiling. Los Angeles gets a bad rap culturally, but in reality it's second only to New York in just about any cultural way you'd care to name. There's a LOT of creative people here in just about every creative arena. One thing I really like about LA is that there's probably more people trying to live their wildest dreams than anywhere else on earth. I think that's admirable. Biggest downside? Weather. I hate the lack of rain. Something I hear a lot from people who are from elsewhere. Summers are quite tedious.

joshklein 15y ago

Lots of good pros/cons of New York mentioned in these comments, so just one thing to add I haven't seen mentioned: after 7 years living & working in Manhattan/Brooklyn, my network is saturated with people in a dozen different industries who all seem to have careers advancing at 2x speed of the people I know anywhere else. I consistently meet people in their late 20's and early 30's who are serious players in a wide variety of business and artistic endeavors. I don't have to go more than one degree of separation to find someone at the top of any field. I know less entrepreneurs here than in SV, but the cross-pollination in NYC is a big deal.

jrockway 15y ago

Don't forget about how expensive housing is in NYC. If you want to live in Manhattan and have ever lived anywhere else, to get an apartment that vaguely resembles what you consider an apartment, you're going to be paying $3000 a month. Recently, it seems, Brooklyn has realized that it is not very far away from Manhattan and the rents have gone up to match. In Chicago, I lived in a brand new building, downtown, and had an 820 square foot apartment for $1400 a month. In Brooklyn, I have about 500 square feet, no AC, no microwave, in a building built in 1883 for $2400 a month. And, I had to pay a broker two months rent for the privilege of renting their apartment. (Yes, Brooklyn Heights is a particularly expensive neighborhood and the commute time to Chelsea is less than from many places in Manhattan. But it's not a $1000 value-add from what I had in Chicago.) Ultimately, I can afford this because Google pays me a lot of money and buys me three meals a day. But if you are bootstrapping a startup, you probably don't have this much money to burn, and there's really no compelling reason to live in NYC unless you spend all your time doing social things. If you're programming, buy yourself a more comfortable apartment in Kansas City, or something. $2400 a month buys you the entire city :)

jvm 15y ago
Brooklyn Heights is literally the most expensive neighborhood in Brooklyn, which probably means it's the most expensive neighborhood in NYC outside Manhattan. If you cared about money you should not have moved there.
- jrockway 15y ago
  Yes, it's pretty expensive, though DUMBO is more expensive. But you can get a lot farther out in Brooklyn without saving much money. Williamsburg, Park Slope, Ft. Greene, Carroll Gardens, Downtown Brooklyn all seem about as expensive as Brooklyn Heights, while being farther away from Manhattan and without as much subway coverage. My thought is: if you want to spend less than $2000 for a one-bedroom and live in a nice neighborhood with subway service less than a half-mile away, it doesn't matter where you live. It's not going to happen.

jballanc 15y ago

I think the elevator in my building is a perfect metaphor for New York city...bear with me... When we were first shown the building, all I noticed was that the walls of the elevator were covered in graffiti! The very picture of urban blight. A couple of months after we moved in, I took a moment to actually read the graffiti: "Bach!", "Ravel", "Beethoven sucks!", "Tchaikovsky 4 eva", and so on. Turns out, we live 2 blocks from the Manhattan school of music.

barce 15y ago

When I think of dating in New York as a straight male, my experience has been "the odds are good, but the goods are odd." I've lived there twice. If you are at the top of your game you can find whatever relationship you want anywhere.

noelwelsh 15y ago

I haven't travelled as much as some, but I've travelled enough to learn that nowhere has the monopoly on the best way of life. Australia has great weather and a relaxed outdoors lifestyle, but few opportunities in technology, not much cultural life, and an over-reliance on cars. London has amazing energy and cultural institutions, but it is crowded and expensive. Then consider that things which are important now might not be important in ten years time. There is no best place to live. There is just the best place to live for you right now.

OtisWildflower 15y ago

Enjoy the taxes, costs and restrictions! Plus, the movie talkers and the stench of public transit! I did the reverse (East coast -> Austin) and could not possibly be happier.

tnash 15y ago

Also on the plus side, a much lower chance of dying in a horrible earthquake.

owensmartin 15y ago

Sorry to offer the most trite comment possible, but how does a 22-year-old trying to pick up chicks constitute "hacker news"?

T-hawk 15y ago

One of the best places to live in New York is New Jersey. Large areas of Hoboken and Jersey City are just as easy for a Manhattan commute via the PATH subway or bus or even a ferry. Rent goes roughly 25% cheaper for similar digs, everything from basement studios to ultramodern luxury towers. Bonus: you don't pay NYC income tax, and NJ sales tax is less too. I've lived in NJ and commuted to Manhattan for essentially my entire professional life, and quite satisfied with it. I currently commute by ferry which is insanely pleasant compared to a subway.

otrofimo 15y ago

Michael, it is very interesting that you chose New York and I wish you all the best. I say that it is interesting because I chose to move from New York to San Francisco at the end of last year. One of the main reasons is the attitude of each respective city. New York will always have a special place in my heart as I grew up in lower part of brooklyn until I moved to Jersey in 7th grade. It was one of the greatest times of my life. I only returned to the city after I graduated college two years ago. Maybe it was a personal experience but after working in NYC(manhattan) I thought it was one of the coldest and most distant places I have ever experienced. It was the feeling of the city, for all the "if you can make it here you can make it anywhere" there is a lack of collaboration, it is selfish, it feels like people are only out for #1. There is this aura of being better than others, almost snobbishness, which is something I have yet to find in San Francisco. San Fran is also incredible in terms of the level of intellectual curiosity that you see in most people. Individuals and groups are building,creating, innovating. I don't remember who said it(maybe it was Paul Graham in Hackers and Painters) but there was a comparison of modern day San Francisco to Florence during the Renaissance. I tried to look for resources in New York, but it felt like I was always meeting the same kind of people. I found that people were just living, going to restaurants, talking celebrity gossip. There was no ambition to better oneself, there was no ambition to learn. There is ambition to make money though. Your point about groupthink is well noted. I would like to point out that artistically, culturally, and musically NYC and SF are not that different. SF is the city of free thinking and has spawned many radical movements (Summer of Love, Beatniks, LGBT social movement), and continues to be ripe with underground/subculture movements. I cannot say NYC doesn't have the Village, but it is a remnant of what it once was as it has undergone extensive gentrification. Either way these I think are two of the more open cities in the United States and have an environment where one in theory can succeed. Personally I believe that San Fran simply has a different mindset which is embodied in the people. You can be as successful as you want to be, just be wary of the environmental factors that may sway you into a lifestyle that makes you feel as if you are running in place

eli_gottlieb 15y ago

How did Boston-Cambridge somehow get completely overlooked? It seems like that used to be the East Coast start-up center, but now it's New York.