6 ms·

Framework is really appealing as thinkpads get more and more soldered everywhere. And pricing is surprisingly ok, especially if you target 64gb of RAM and a big

by Leimi 3y ago

Framework is really appealing as thinkpads get more and more soldered everywhere. And pricing is surprisingly ok, especially if you target 64gb of RAM and a big ssd that you buy on your own and install yourself. You can almost buy 3 amd framework with those specs for one macbook pro. Only thing that I'm afraid of is the build quality of the chassis that doesn't really seem on par with premium thinkpads and other business laptops.

diggan 3y ago
> Only thing that I'm afraid of is the build quality of the chassis that doesn't really seem on par with premium thinkpads and other business laptops. I guess in theory you would be able to manufacture it yourself, if the specification for the chassi is available publicly (which I guess it should as that's their whole shtick?).
- CuriousCosmic 3y ago
  You definitely could. All the details are available on the FrameworkComputer github org and you could either use what they have as a basis for a chassis or design your own custom chassis that fits the framework parts. https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13 https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13
rjh29 3y ago
I want one but it's not quite there yet for me, still 50% more expensive than a thinkpad (let alone a refurb one, which is arguably better for the environment than buying a framework) and it falls behind on keyboard, trackpad, chassis materials and number of ports. They are doing amazing work but it needs a few more iterations. The chassis is made of much cheaper materials, it does not look cheap but it won't withstand the abuse of a thinkpad t series or similar.
- mkozlows 3y ago
  I don't agree. I've owned a ThinkPad T and currently have a Framework. I'd give the build quality edge to the Framework, even without the repairability (which is obviously better).
  - rjh29 3y ago
    There is some subjectivity but the Framework is plastic+aluminium, glossy and has flex especially in the lid, and photos online show it warping when dropped. The T14s is made of magnesium. It is completely solid, even the keyboard does not flex when typed on. It feels much more premium imo.
- Leimi 3y ago
  I'm curious how it's 50% more expensive than (new) thinkpads. Personally I'm looking for machines where there is at least 64gb soldered, or the possibility to upgrade later. In the thinkpad line that means basically only the X1 now for 13/14 inches laptops. And it's not cheaper than the framework. I agree about the rest, a few things are not quite there yet, or maybe will never be. But on lots of things it is really refreshing.
  - tadfisher 3y ago
    I'm typing on a P14s Gen 4 (AMD), which has 64gb soldered and a Ryzen 7840 SOC. It also has an OLED screen, which is hit-or-miss depending on your preferences; I value the high resolution and color accuracy, but it's not the best choice for battery life.
    - Leimi 3y ago
      man, I was convinced this was 32gb max, great to hear! I have the gen 2 which is the most annoying thinkpad I ever had, but well, it's still really great compared to other brands.
- moneywoes 3y ago
  what thinkpad models are you looking at? i have a t480 and it seems due for upgrade as the battery is pitiful even after upgrading
  - rjh29 3y ago
    imo the T14 AMD (or the T14s if you need usb4 and a slightly nicer looking chassis) are the best value in the thinkpad range.
layer8 3y ago
The Framework keyboards are not particularly appealing compared to (earlier) ThinkPads, in terms of layout. No full-height cursor keys or top row, too many keys missing one might want, in particular on Windows. Unfortunately the keyboard cutout is vertically so constrained that a third party also can’t do anything about it.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  I would love a configuration without a touch pad but with an added ThinkPad style nibble.
  - sohkamyung 3y ago
    Maybe somebody could hack the Lenovo Thinkpad TrackPoint Keyboard on to it.
- deepsun 3y ago
  Well, theoretically, a third-party can also change the whole keyboard cover with touchpad, not just the keyboard. Specs are open.
anotherhue 3y ago
I have one, it's pretty good. Not as sleek as the MBPs but perfectly functional.
tadfisher 3y ago
Soldered LPDDR5x has more bandwidth, lower latency, and consumes less power than the equivalent DDR5 SODIMM. It can also be clocked higher due to signal integrity constraints, and you really want higher clocks with a Ryzen SOC. If you plan on maxing-out the memory, the only advantage of SODIMMs I see are in repairability. That said, I have verified exactly one bad stick of RAM in over 3 decades of computing, so I personally think the downside of soldered RAM is overblown.
- LeonenTheDK 3y ago
  For me it goes beyond repair, if I sell the device later and the next user wants more RAM, they have the option to do so. Plus bringing ram forward between mainboard upgrades (save for transitions between DDR4, DDR5, and whatever else may come in the future). I remember now too Dell was working on a new memory module for laptops called CAMM, I think it was aiming to bridge the gap between soldered and SODIMMs, but I'm not sure where its development currently is, nor the real world differences.
  - freedomben 3y ago
    Yes, I have carried RAM forward to new machines twice now. It's a huge benefit to me and worth the tradeoffs.
- justinclift 3y ago
  Hopefully something like CAMM gets traction, as it seems like an improvement over SO-DIMM: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/342342-jedec-says-dells-camm-laptop-memory-tech-will-replace-so-dimm https://www.extremetech.com/computing/342342-jedec-says-dell...
- Leimi 3y ago
  yeah I get the benefits. And yeah the "repair" argument I agree, good luck finding a bad stick :) The real frustrating thing as for now in the real world is, there is an extremely low number of laptops with soldered ram that offers 64 GB. And the few that do, charge an absurd amount of money for it. With socketed ram, I can: - buy the cheapest built-in config of a laptop - then buy the RAM I currently need on my own, often saving a few hundreds bucks just doing that - then, in a few years, buy some new RAM again, when I need it, if I need it, instead of having to buy a whole new laptop. That's how I went with thinkpads during 15 years. Now I have to pay 500$ more to be a bit future proof. If the manufacturer offers it. Double that if you want a mac. So, still today, I'm 100% taking socketed ram instead of soldered one.
rafaelmn 3y ago
I wonder if they eventually branch out into boutique quality stuff - since they should be upgradeable for at least an upgrade cycle it shouldn't be that big of a deal to have a case/keyboard that's 3-4x regular price if the quality/durability is there.
ksec 3y ago
>Only thing that I'm afraid of is the build quality of the chassis that doesn't really seem on par with premium thinkpads and other business laptops. That is something I "hope" they could work on, but also aware this may distract them from other much more important things. In a perfect world you could have a laptop that has the chassis of a MacBook but the portability, repairability or Framework.

by Leimi 3y ago

diggan 3y ago

> Only thing that I'm afraid of is the build quality of the chassis that doesn't really seem on par with premium thinkpads and other business laptops. I guess in theory you would be able to manufacture it yourself, if the specification for the chassi is available publicly (which I guess it should as that's their whole shtick?).

CuriousCosmic 3y ago
You definitely could. All the details are available on the FrameworkComputer github org and you could either use what they have as a basis for a chassis or design your own custom chassis that fits the framework parts. https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13 https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Framework-Laptop-13

rjh29 3y ago

I want one but it's not quite there yet for me, still 50% more expensive than a thinkpad (let alone a refurb one, which is arguably better for the environment than buying a framework) and it falls behind on keyboard, trackpad, chassis materials and number of ports. They are doing amazing work but it needs a few more iterations. The chassis is made of much cheaper materials, it does not look cheap but it won't withstand the abuse of a thinkpad t series or similar.

mkozlows 3y ago
I don't agree. I've owned a ThinkPad T and currently have a Framework. I'd give the build quality edge to the Framework, even without the repairability (which is obviously better).
- rjh29 3y ago
  There is some subjectivity but the Framework is plastic+aluminium, glossy and has flex especially in the lid, and photos online show it warping when dropped. The T14s is made of magnesium. It is completely solid, even the keyboard does not flex when typed on. It feels much more premium imo.
Leimi 3y ago
I'm curious how it's 50% more expensive than (new) thinkpads. Personally I'm looking for machines where there is at least 64gb soldered, or the possibility to upgrade later. In the thinkpad line that means basically only the X1 now for 13/14 inches laptops. And it's not cheaper than the framework. I agree about the rest, a few things are not quite there yet, or maybe will never be. But on lots of things it is really refreshing.
- tadfisher 3y ago
  I'm typing on a P14s Gen 4 (AMD), which has 64gb soldered and a Ryzen 7840 SOC. It also has an OLED screen, which is hit-or-miss depending on your preferences; I value the high resolution and color accuracy, but it's not the best choice for battery life.
  - Leimi 3y ago
    man, I was convinced this was 32gb max, great to hear! I have the gen 2 which is the most annoying thinkpad I ever had, but well, it's still really great compared to other brands.
moneywoes 3y ago
what thinkpad models are you looking at? i have a t480 and it seems due for upgrade as the battery is pitiful even after upgrading
- rjh29 3y ago
  imo the T14 AMD (or the T14s if you need usb4 and a slightly nicer looking chassis) are the best value in the thinkpad range.

layer8 3y ago

The Framework keyboards are not particularly appealing compared to (earlier) ThinkPads, in terms of layout. No full-height cursor keys or top row, too many keys missing one might want, in particular on Windows. Unfortunately the keyboard cutout is vertically so constrained that a third party also can’t do anything about it.

panick21_ 3y ago
I would love a configuration without a touch pad but with an added ThinkPad style nibble.
- sohkamyung 3y ago
  Maybe somebody could hack the Lenovo Thinkpad TrackPoint Keyboard on to it.
deepsun 3y ago
Well, theoretically, a third-party can also change the whole keyboard cover with touchpad, not just the keyboard. Specs are open.

anotherhue 3y ago

I have one, it's pretty good. Not as sleek as the MBPs but perfectly functional.

tadfisher 3y ago

Soldered LPDDR5x has more bandwidth, lower latency, and consumes less power than the equivalent DDR5 SODIMM. It can also be clocked higher due to signal integrity constraints, and you really want higher clocks with a Ryzen SOC. If you plan on maxing-out the memory, the only advantage of SODIMMs I see are in repairability. That said, I have verified exactly one bad stick of RAM in over 3 decades of computing, so I personally think the downside of soldered RAM is overblown.

LeonenTheDK 3y ago
For me it goes beyond repair, if I sell the device later and the next user wants more RAM, they have the option to do so. Plus bringing ram forward between mainboard upgrades (save for transitions between DDR4, DDR5, and whatever else may come in the future). I remember now too Dell was working on a new memory module for laptops called CAMM, I think it was aiming to bridge the gap between soldered and SODIMMs, but I'm not sure where its development currently is, nor the real world differences.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Yes, I have carried RAM forward to new machines twice now. It's a huge benefit to me and worth the tradeoffs.
justinclift 3y ago
Hopefully something like CAMM gets traction, as it seems like an improvement over SO-DIMM: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/342342-jedec-says-dells-camm-laptop-memory-tech-will-replace-so-dimm https://www.extremetech.com/computing/342342-jedec-says-dell...
Leimi 3y ago
yeah I get the benefits. And yeah the "repair" argument I agree, good luck finding a bad stick :) The real frustrating thing as for now in the real world is, there is an extremely low number of laptops with soldered ram that offers 64 GB. And the few that do, charge an absurd amount of money for it. With socketed ram, I can: - buy the cheapest built-in config of a laptop - then buy the RAM I currently need on my own, often saving a few hundreds bucks just doing that - then, in a few years, buy some new RAM again, when I need it, if I need it, instead of having to buy a whole new laptop. That's how I went with thinkpads during 15 years. Now I have to pay 500$ more to be a bit future proof. If the manufacturer offers it. Double that if you want a mac. So, still today, I'm 100% taking socketed ram instead of soldered one.

rafaelmn 3y ago

I wonder if they eventually branch out into boutique quality stuff - since they should be upgradeable for at least an upgrade cycle it shouldn't be that big of a deal to have a case/keyboard that's 3-4x regular price if the quality/durability is there.

ksec 3y ago

>Only thing that I'm afraid of is the build quality of the chassis that doesn't really seem on par with premium thinkpads and other business laptops. That is something I "hope" they could work on, but also aware this may distract them from other much more important things. In a perfect world you could have a laptop that has the chassis of a MacBook but the portability, repairability or Framework.