4 ms·

The problem is where do you draw the line? Because I am for the death penalty in extreme cases, like when that neo-nazi in Norway murdered dozens of children an

The problem is where do you draw the line? Because I am for the death penalty in extreme cases, like when that neo-nazi in Norway murdered dozens of children and there was no doubt he did it. But when something happens in a home, with just one surviving witness being the suspect, I don't think they should be so quick to sentence someone to the death penalty. It should exist as a deterrent, but only in extreme and very clear cut cases.

pas 3y ago
"life without parole" is quite the deterrent.
Eisenstein 3y ago
The death penalty does not deter people from committing crimes -- that neo-Nazi would have killed those kids regardless. Murdering him doesn't bring the kids back. The death penalty was enacted initially because there were no long term prisons -- the way to keep someone from committing more crimes was to kill them. Now we have other options.
throwaway447 3y ago
What makes a case extreme? When Breivik was aged 4, and living in Oslo's Frogner borough, two reports were filed expressing concern about his mental health.[47] A psychologist in one report made a note of the boy's peculiar smile, suggesting it was not anchored in his emotions but was rather a deliberate response to his environment.[48] In another report from Norway's National Centre for Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (SSBU), concerns were raised about how Breivik was treated by his mother: "[s]he 'sexualised' the young Breivik, hit him, and frequently told him that she wished that he were dead." See also https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/9592433/Anders-Behring-Breiviks-mother-sexualised-him-when-he-was-four.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/959... See also his Psychiatric evaluation under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik Whatever he did, I have doubts that he was sane. But the question is, which problem does the death penalty really solve? Deterrence? Most death penalty countries have very high crime rates. Prevent another crime from the same individual? Life without parole has the same effect. PS: Reading about Breivik, he was probably insane or at least on the border of insanity during his crimes. Judging by his actions in prison, he is at least insane by now. I doubt that he well get released after 21 years served and will get preventive detention. So basically, since he is mentally sick now he can't get released from prison, a place where he likely should not have been held in the first place.
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > What makes a case extreme? A rate of occurrence so low it is best described in terms like 'extreme outlier', 'vanishingly rare' or 'unprecedented'.
  - throwaway447 3y ago
    You a right here, this may allow the case to be called extreme. But I am not sure he deserves the death penalty. Extreme outliers are often used to justify extreme measures. The question is, should they? In an EU country we had just a murder case, a teen was murders by two girls, aged 13 and 12. Since this is below of the age of criminal responsibility for the country, where they were committed, people argued the age for criminal responsibility should be lowered to 12 or even below. Are extreme outliers a good basis for this? And if age of criminal responsibility is lowered to 12 or 10, should not the "age of consent" be lowered to 12 or 10 too?
    - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
      Kindly, I think your logic here is too untethered from empathy to lead to positive questions. I think it's not an unusual state for someone to pass thru while they're still developing empathy. In this case the well-being of the minors is being allowed to slip below the quality of legal machinations. That said, I feel downvotes without explanations are unhelpful here.
- INTPenis 3y ago
  So you're trying to say that because he's clearly insane from an abusive childhood that putting him to death would not be a deterrent? I disagree. Keeping him alive sends a message to every right wing nut out there that it doesn't matter how many children you massacre beause you'll be kept alive in a humane norwegian prison for the rest of your life as a symbol to all your followers.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
    > So you're trying to say that because he's clearly insane from an abusive childhood that putting him to death would not be a deterrent? That is not what they're saying. The claimed deterrence from the death penalty is to give pause to would-be murderers such that they don't actually commit murder. Putting Breivik to death obviously does not serve as a deterrent to Breivik's past crimes and, while it can ensure that future crimes also do not occur, so can putting him in prison.
framapotari 3y ago
I see this sentiment often and I understand the idea, but how can you implement this "no doubt he did it, very clear cut case" level of guilt? We already have Guilty which is supposed to mean that guilt has been proven beyond reasonable doubt (or however it's phrased in each justice system). Of course in the real world that's not always the case, but are you going to take two Guilty verdicts and say "A is kind of Guilty but not enough for the death penalty, however B is extremely Guilty and should be put to death"? Or add a new verdict? Not Guilty, Guilty and Definitely Guilty?
tokai 3y ago
ohnono, the death penalty would be much too good for him. No he will waste the rest of his life playing the worst ps2 games and attempting to write his memories with a rubber pencil that hurts his hand. All while getting invasive naked body searches multiple times a day. Had they put him down he would not experience any consequences from his actions.
tjpnz 3y ago
Can't say I'm opposed to police acting with more agency when confronting the Breviks and Tarrants of the world. But a bureaucratic procedure enacted by the state isn't going to deter an individual operating on passion or religious adherence to a faulty belief system.
mjlee 3y ago
I don't believe it works as a deterrent - I doubt people who commit the most awful crimes are rationally weighing the pros and cons before acting.
- Yeul 3y ago
  Actually it can make things worse. In India they now have the death penalty for child rape. So criminals are panicking and trying to erase evidence.
timbit42 3y ago
Give them the option of medical assisted death.

pas 3y ago

"life without parole" is quite the deterrent.

Eisenstein 3y ago

The death penalty does not deter people from committing crimes -- that neo-Nazi would have killed those kids regardless. Murdering him doesn't bring the kids back. The death penalty was enacted initially because there were no long term prisons -- the way to keep someone from committing more crimes was to kill them. Now we have other options.

throwaway447 3y ago

What makes a case extreme? When Breivik was aged 4, and living in Oslo's Frogner borough, two reports were filed expressing concern about his mental health.[47] A psychologist in one report made a note of the boy's peculiar smile, suggesting it was not anchored in his emotions but was rather a deliberate response to his environment.[48] In another report from Norway's National Centre for Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (SSBU), concerns were raised about how Breivik was treated by his mother: "[s]he 'sexualised' the young Breivik, hit him, and frequently told him that she wished that he were dead." See also https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/9592433/Anders-Behring-Breiviks-mother-sexualised-him-when-he-was-four.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/959... See also his Psychiatric evaluation under https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik Whatever he did, I have doubts that he was sane. But the question is, which problem does the death penalty really solve? Deterrence? Most death penalty countries have very high crime rates. Prevent another crime from the same individual? Life without parole has the same effect. PS: Reading about Breivik, he was probably insane or at least on the border of insanity during his crimes. Judging by his actions in prison, he is at least insane by now. I doubt that he well get released after 21 years served and will get preventive detention. So basically, since he is mentally sick now he can't get released from prison, a place where he likely should not have been held in the first place.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> What makes a case extreme? A rate of occurrence so low it is best described in terms like 'extreme outlier', 'vanishingly rare' or 'unprecedented'.
- throwaway447 3y ago
  You a right here, this may allow the case to be called extreme. But I am not sure he deserves the death penalty. Extreme outliers are often used to justify extreme measures. The question is, should they? In an EU country we had just a murder case, a teen was murders by two girls, aged 13 and 12. Since this is below of the age of criminal responsibility for the country, where they were committed, people argued the age for criminal responsibility should be lowered to 12 or even below. Are extreme outliers a good basis for this? And if age of criminal responsibility is lowered to 12 or 10, should not the "age of consent" be lowered to 12 or 10 too?
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    Kindly, I think your logic here is too untethered from empathy to lead to positive questions. I think it's not an unusual state for someone to pass thru while they're still developing empathy. In this case the well-being of the minors is being allowed to slip below the quality of legal machinations. That said, I feel downvotes without explanations are unhelpful here.
INTPenis 3y ago
So you're trying to say that because he's clearly insane from an abusive childhood that putting him to death would not be a deterrent? I disagree. Keeping him alive sends a message to every right wing nut out there that it doesn't matter how many children you massacre beause you'll be kept alive in a humane norwegian prison for the rest of your life as a symbol to all your followers.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
  > So you're trying to say that because he's clearly insane from an abusive childhood that putting him to death would not be a deterrent? That is not what they're saying. The claimed deterrence from the death penalty is to give pause to would-be murderers such that they don't actually commit murder. Putting Breivik to death obviously does not serve as a deterrent to Breivik's past crimes and, while it can ensure that future crimes also do not occur, so can putting him in prison.

framapotari 3y ago

I see this sentiment often and I understand the idea, but how can you implement this "no doubt he did it, very clear cut case" level of guilt? We already have Guilty which is supposed to mean that guilt has been proven beyond reasonable doubt (or however it's phrased in each justice system). Of course in the real world that's not always the case, but are you going to take two Guilty verdicts and say "A is kind of Guilty but not enough for the death penalty, however B is extremely Guilty and should be put to death"? Or add a new verdict? Not Guilty, Guilty and Definitely Guilty?

tokai 3y ago

ohnono, the death penalty would be much too good for him. No he will waste the rest of his life playing the worst ps2 games and attempting to write his memories with a rubber pencil that hurts his hand. All while getting invasive naked body searches multiple times a day. Had they put him down he would not experience any consequences from his actions.

tjpnz 3y ago

Can't say I'm opposed to police acting with more agency when confronting the Breviks and Tarrants of the world. But a bureaucratic procedure enacted by the state isn't going to deter an individual operating on passion or religious adherence to a faulty belief system.

mjlee 3y ago

I don't believe it works as a deterrent - I doubt people who commit the most awful crimes are rationally weighing the pros and cons before acting.

Yeul 3y ago
Actually it can make things worse. In India they now have the death penalty for child rape. So criminals are panicking and trying to erase evidence.

timbit42 3y ago

Give them the option of medical assisted death.