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I've recently rode through a Belt&Road project: The Lao high-speed train. In my opinion, it shows the complete failure of the Chinese government. The high-speed

by csomar 3y ago

I've recently rode through a Belt&Road project: The Lao high-speed train. In my opinion, it shows the complete failure of the Chinese government. The high-speed train is a reasonably great train that goes through dozens (hundreds?) of mountains and rivers (through tunnels and bridges). It does that while enabling you to work from the comfort of your chair. And while it's not high-speed (as in 300Km/h), it is reasonably fast. The train station locations, however, are just non-sense. This is because they are too far, and for many stations, there is no "road" to connect to the city. Couple that with the retarded system they have to check-in which requires you to be in the station one hour before your train departs and suddenly a 40 minutes ride becomes a 2.5 hours ride. Might as well just use a regular bus? In my opinion, the Chinese government is still living in the 80s (along with 80s technology). The Chinese economy (or parts of China) is living in a parallel reality with companies that are quite developed if not world-class. This means the Chinese government can "execute" quite advanced projects while being a peasant itself. It's not clear what's sustaining the central government in China, or what's the level of discontent in the productive provinces.

ilickpoolalgae 3y ago
I'm not sure if it's comparable, but the Japanese Shinkansen had similar issues when it's first built. A lot of the stations didn't go through the existing central stations due to costs and other logistical problems. This is why there are a lot of stations that the Shinkansen goes through that are called "Shin-XXX" (e.g. Shin Osaka). During a period of fast economic growth this isn't a big issue because the areas around these stations quickly become hubs or alternative downtown areas of their own. Now, I don't know if this will happen to CN but it is a somewhat repeatable outcome of building important railroad hubs in newly developed areas.
- evertedsphere 3y ago
  (for those who might not know, shin 新 = "new")
- csomar 3y ago
  I don't think this is a problem for CN because in China, you can take the subway after getting off the train. It's okay to have the station afar from the center. This is the not case with Laos but I don't think the people planning that really cared.
- Loq 3y ago
  This is a much older phenomenon, called railway town, and it is so frequent that it has its own Wikipedia page [1]. At smaller scale this also happens in cities where new underground lines are built. It's a well-established way of paying for public transport. See [2] for a discussion. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_town https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_town [2] https://pedestrianobservations.com/2017/09/07/meme-weeding-land-value-capture/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2017/09/07/meme-weeding-l...
- paulsutter 3y ago
  Excellent example. My onetime Japanese distributor was walking distance from Shin-Yokohama station and I would never have guessed the history >Shin-Yokohama Station opened on 1 October 1964, with the opening of the Tokaido Shinkansen.[4] At the time, the surrounding area was completely rural, and the site was selected as it was the intersection of the Tōkaidō Shinkansen tracks with the existing Yokohama Line From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin-Yokohama_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin-Yokohama_Station
colordrops 3y ago
[flagged]
- csomar 3y ago
  Except your productive components are what makes these guns. There is probably a certain balance or exchange of power that we do not understand. Or maybe China is on the cusp of an upheaval but because of its size its revolution happens on a longer time frame that we do not understand.
- chx 3y ago
  "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" well yes. I am curious why you chose to write this in Chinese which most people here won't understand. Might makes right or might is right is a closely related phrase, too.
  - colordrops 3y ago
    Just thought it would spur searches so people could look into it and realize who originated the phrase.
jessepasley 3y ago
I had the same opinion when taking high speed train for the first time in China. Many stations seemed to be far away from anything and there was a lot of process when you get to the station. That's not the case now as all of those areas have sprung up, along with convenient transportation via subway/metro to the places you'd want to get to. You can also board the train quickly now. I'm not sure if that makes sense for Laos, but for China it seemed to work pretty well.
- fspeech 3y ago
  It's also a financing scheme: hsr developers could get land on the cheap around the stations and profit from the appreciation brought by the hsr.
packetslave 3y ago
[flagged]
kridsdale3 3y ago
It seems like everything you said applies to Airports as well. Hardly any of them are anywhere near where you'd actually want to be (city center). Over the decades, the infrastructure will build up to connect the airport to the city. In my home (Vancouver) they weren't connected by a train for 73 years. Airports of course also have enormous 'processing' time. It's normal to arrive 2 hours early.
- creato 3y ago
  Airports often replace multiple days of travel via other means though. In that context, 1-2 hours isn’t a big difference.
  - georgeecollins 3y ago
    Also, airports are really loud and smoggy. They depress real estate prices near by. In California there are lots of small airports that could have been turned into bigger ones but the neighborhoods don't want it.
Stevvo 3y ago
I visited northern Laos in 2013. Speaking to people along the construction route, many didn't even know what a train was. None had ever seen one before. I only saw a single paved road in the country, which I hitchhiked on from the Chinese border to Luang Prabang. Most drivers on the road were Chinese, but none were coming to visit Laos; they were driving through to Thailand. So I came to understand this train was built to connect Thailand and China, rather than for Laos.
eunos 3y ago
Nah it is intended. They built the terminus in far away place for cheap land costs and easy acquisition. Now the expectation is that there will be further developments over there including folks moving nearby. It'll be huge win for the train company since they can starts charging very high land rent compared to their purchasing price.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  This seems fine. It'd be like buying a bunch of desert in Clark County in the early 1950s and then building Las Vegas. They're creating value for the land that they bought.
mikrotikker 3y ago
Jeez riding high speed rail in China must be gambling with your life given the prevalence of tofu dreg.

by csomar 3y ago

ilickpoolalgae 3y ago

I'm not sure if it's comparable, but the Japanese Shinkansen had similar issues when it's first built. A lot of the stations didn't go through the existing central stations due to costs and other logistical problems. This is why there are a lot of stations that the Shinkansen goes through that are called "Shin-XXX" (e.g. Shin Osaka). During a period of fast economic growth this isn't a big issue because the areas around these stations quickly become hubs or alternative downtown areas of their own. Now, I don't know if this will happen to CN but it is a somewhat repeatable outcome of building important railroad hubs in newly developed areas.

evertedsphere 3y ago
(for those who might not know, shin 新 = "new")
csomar 3y ago
I don't think this is a problem for CN because in China, you can take the subway after getting off the train. It's okay to have the station afar from the center. This is the not case with Laos but I don't think the people planning that really cared.
Loq 3y ago
This is a much older phenomenon, called railway town, and it is so frequent that it has its own Wikipedia page [1]. At smaller scale this also happens in cities where new underground lines are built. It's a well-established way of paying for public transport. See [2] for a discussion. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_town https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_town [2] https://pedestrianobservations.com/2017/09/07/meme-weeding-land-value-capture/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2017/09/07/meme-weeding-l...
paulsutter 3y ago
Excellent example. My onetime Japanese distributor was walking distance from Shin-Yokohama station and I would never have guessed the history >Shin-Yokohama Station opened on 1 October 1964, with the opening of the Tokaido Shinkansen.[4] At the time, the surrounding area was completely rural, and the site was selected as it was the intersection of the Tōkaidō Shinkansen tracks with the existing Yokohama Line From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin-Yokohama_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin-Yokohama_Station

colordrops 3y ago

[flagged]

csomar 3y ago
Except your productive components are what makes these guns. There is probably a certain balance or exchange of power that we do not understand. Or maybe China is on the cusp of an upheaval but because of its size its revolution happens on a longer time frame that we do not understand.
chx 3y ago
"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" well yes. I am curious why you chose to write this in Chinese which most people here won't understand. Might makes right or might is right is a closely related phrase, too.
- colordrops 3y ago
  Just thought it would spur searches so people could look into it and realize who originated the phrase.

jessepasley 3y ago

I had the same opinion when taking high speed train for the first time in China. Many stations seemed to be far away from anything and there was a lot of process when you get to the station. That's not the case now as all of those areas have sprung up, along with convenient transportation via subway/metro to the places you'd want to get to. You can also board the train quickly now. I'm not sure if that makes sense for Laos, but for China it seemed to work pretty well.

fspeech 3y ago
It's also a financing scheme: hsr developers could get land on the cheap around the stations and profit from the appreciation brought by the hsr.

packetslave 3y ago

[flagged]

kridsdale3 3y ago

It seems like everything you said applies to Airports as well. Hardly any of them are anywhere near where you'd actually want to be (city center). Over the decades, the infrastructure will build up to connect the airport to the city. In my home (Vancouver) they weren't connected by a train for 73 years. Airports of course also have enormous 'processing' time. It's normal to arrive 2 hours early.

creato 3y ago
Airports often replace multiple days of travel via other means though. In that context, 1-2 hours isn’t a big difference.
- georgeecollins 3y ago
  Also, airports are really loud and smoggy. They depress real estate prices near by. In California there are lots of small airports that could have been turned into bigger ones but the neighborhoods don't want it.

Stevvo 3y ago

I visited northern Laos in 2013. Speaking to people along the construction route, many didn't even know what a train was. None had ever seen one before. I only saw a single paved road in the country, which I hitchhiked on from the Chinese border to Luang Prabang. Most drivers on the road were Chinese, but none were coming to visit Laos; they were driving through to Thailand. So I came to understand this train was built to connect Thailand and China, rather than for Laos.

eunos 3y ago

Nah it is intended. They built the terminus in far away place for cheap land costs and easy acquisition. Now the expectation is that there will be further developments over there including folks moving nearby. It'll be huge win for the train company since they can starts charging very high land rent compared to their purchasing price.

sokoloff 3y ago
This seems fine. It'd be like buying a bunch of desert in Clark County in the early 1950s and then building Las Vegas. They're creating value for the land that they bought.

mikrotikker 3y ago

Jeez riding high speed rail in China must be gambling with your life given the prevalence of tofu dreg.