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As an Australian who benefited from a great public college (or as we call it uni) if public schools were free and high quality what would motivate the demand fo

As an Australian who benefited from a great public college (or as we call it uni) if public schools were free and high quality what would motivate the demand for elite schools? Yes elite schools are still networking grounds. But wouldnt the hope be that if people who already came out of public schools weren't saddled with crippling debt, enough of them could pay it forward to the broader group than their own elite school buddies?

lesam 3y ago
If you want to be a CEO, it's a lot better to network with the kids of all the CEO's than the kids of the dentists and middle managers, if you can arrange it.
- flashgordon 3y ago
  Totally and this is what I imagined elite schools and colleges were providing. Kinda like signalling. But if you don't have the means to hobnob then might as well get educated affordably?
  - arolihas 3y ago
    Hobnobbing with the children of rich families is easier on a college campus compared to moving to Manhattan and trying to climb the social ladder from scratch. The earlier you can get into these circles the better. That's why private schools like Trinity or Andover are so coveted. Even certain daycares are becoming "elite."
    - xboxnolifes 3y ago
      Their point is that not everyone is looking to "hobnob", period. Some (most) people want a decent education and a decent job.
      - arolihas 3y ago
        Of course, but that has nothing to do with the demand of elite schools. There's plenty of cheaper decent education options for better outcomes and decent jobs that have proliferated recently (online schooling, bootcamps, etc). But in regards to "elite" institutions, those with more money and a "stronger need" (ie more money) have and continue to drive the demand there.
chalsprhebaodu 3y ago
In this hypothetical, elite schools would be incentivized to provide something the public schools either do not or cannot provide. Quality of education alone is hard enough to control for. What’s stopping the for-profit elite schools from just raising the bar until public schools simply can’t keep up?
- sokoloff 3y ago
  What type of "raising the bar" do you have in mind that would be detrimental if done? If MIT and Stanford raise the bar on education, isn't that a good thing? Don't we want them to be giving the very best education that they possibly can?
  - chalsprhebaodu 3y ago
    I almost put this in there, I don’t think it would inherently be a bad thing at all, it just keeps the imbalance there.
Kalium 3y ago
People want to have status markers to point to. Attending an elite school or sending your kids to one are great status markers, plus the value of elite networking and all the elite opportunities. The argument is often framed in terms of race-conscious admissions to elite schools, but in reality it's over who gets to gatekeep the ranks of the elite. These are fundamentally contentious and limited. This author wants to talk about broad access to education instead. They note correctly that there are really not that many people who are affected by these policy squabbles and far more who benefit from getting access to higher education of any non-elite quality.
nradov 3y ago
Very few students pay full tuition for the elite (first tier) private schools. They have large enough endowments to offer generous financial aid. Plus the students who can gain admission based on merit often qualify for additional scholarships from other organizations. The students who accumulate crippling debt usually attended second and third tier private colleges. Those are generally a terrible value.
doctorpangloss 3y ago
> As an Australian who benefited from a great public college (or as we call it uni) if public schools were free and high quality what would motivate the demand for elite schools? In San Francisco, where I live, some in the community are challenging smart kids tracking into exclusive experiences in public K-12 schools. Among people who are eligible for tracking, tracking seems really popular. But the plurality seems really unhappy with it. So there will always be XYZ, a word I cannot use, in communities to de facto track in public schools, or sometimes there will be legacy admissions, or whatever. Maybe you don't believe these stylized facts. Like you already sound like the same people in this community who want to end tracking: us vs. them. I know you probably don't actually want that, but you're the perfect example of a tipping point, expressing an eensy weensy amount of resentment for "elite school buddies," that somehow winds up in "end gifted programs." Surely you see that.
- flashgordon 3y ago
  Sorry I didn't quite get this. This is also the first time I heard of "tracking". Il admit may be there is resentment re elite schools folks having more etc but I understand that is a fact of life. We are human after all :) The "elite" will find a way to be exclusive etc. Is this what you were getting at?

lesam 3y ago

If you want to be a CEO, it's a lot better to network with the kids of all the CEO's than the kids of the dentists and middle managers, if you can arrange it.

flashgordon 3y ago
Totally and this is what I imagined elite schools and colleges were providing. Kinda like signalling. But if you don't have the means to hobnob then might as well get educated affordably?
- arolihas 3y ago
  Hobnobbing with the children of rich families is easier on a college campus compared to moving to Manhattan and trying to climb the social ladder from scratch. The earlier you can get into these circles the better. That's why private schools like Trinity or Andover are so coveted. Even certain daycares are becoming "elite."
  - xboxnolifes 3y ago
    Their point is that not everyone is looking to "hobnob", period. Some (most) people want a decent education and a decent job.
    - arolihas 3y ago
      Of course, but that has nothing to do with the demand of elite schools. There's plenty of cheaper decent education options for better outcomes and decent jobs that have proliferated recently (online schooling, bootcamps, etc). But in regards to "elite" institutions, those with more money and a "stronger need" (ie more money) have and continue to drive the demand there.

chalsprhebaodu 3y ago

In this hypothetical, elite schools would be incentivized to provide something the public schools either do not or cannot provide. Quality of education alone is hard enough to control for. What’s stopping the for-profit elite schools from just raising the bar until public schools simply can’t keep up?

sokoloff 3y ago
What type of "raising the bar" do you have in mind that would be detrimental if done? If MIT and Stanford raise the bar on education, isn't that a good thing? Don't we want them to be giving the very best education that they possibly can?
- chalsprhebaodu 3y ago
  I almost put this in there, I don’t think it would inherently be a bad thing at all, it just keeps the imbalance there.

Kalium 3y ago

People want to have status markers to point to. Attending an elite school or sending your kids to one are great status markers, plus the value of elite networking and all the elite opportunities. The argument is often framed in terms of race-conscious admissions to elite schools, but in reality it's over who gets to gatekeep the ranks of the elite. These are fundamentally contentious and limited. This author wants to talk about broad access to education instead. They note correctly that there are really not that many people who are affected by these policy squabbles and far more who benefit from getting access to higher education of any non-elite quality.

nradov 3y ago

Very few students pay full tuition for the elite (first tier) private schools. They have large enough endowments to offer generous financial aid. Plus the students who can gain admission based on merit often qualify for additional scholarships from other organizations. The students who accumulate crippling debt usually attended second and third tier private colleges. Those are generally a terrible value.

doctorpangloss 3y ago

> As an Australian who benefited from a great public college (or as we call it uni) if public schools were free and high quality what would motivate the demand for elite schools? In San Francisco, where I live, some in the community are challenging smart kids tracking into exclusive experiences in public K-12 schools. Among people who are eligible for tracking, tracking seems really popular. But the plurality seems really unhappy with it. So there will always be XYZ, a word I cannot use, in communities to de facto track in public schools, or sometimes there will be legacy admissions, or whatever. Maybe you don't believe these stylized facts. Like you already sound like the same people in this community who want to end tracking: us vs. them. I know you probably don't actually want that, but you're the perfect example of a tipping point, expressing an eensy weensy amount of resentment for "elite school buddies," that somehow winds up in "end gifted programs." Surely you see that.

flashgordon 3y ago
Sorry I didn't quite get this. This is also the first time I heard of "tracking". Il admit may be there is resentment re elite schools folks having more etc but I understand that is a fact of life. We are human after all :) The "elite" will find a way to be exclusive etc. Is this what you were getting at?