4 ms·

RTO doesn’t really work if five people are back in the office.

Kye 3y ago
Manufacturing buggy whips doesn't work if only five people own buggies. This is a problem for the buggy whip manufacturer to solve, not the people who bought a car or took the train. There's a third option beyond forcing everyone into boxes in the middle of nowhere (old and busted) and everyone working from home (new old hotness).
ncallaway 3y ago
You see how that’s inherently about putting the preferences of the 5 people *above* the preferences of the rest of the office, yes?
- throwaway5959 3y ago
  People are allowed to have different preferences and lifestyles than the majority. I’m not a CEO so it’s not my place to decide what a company does or doesn’t do.
  - ncallaway 3y ago
    Right, I think it’s fine for people to have differences and differing preferences. My point is that if 5/100 people want to work in the office and 95/100 don’t, that’s fine. If 5/100 want to work in an office with 100 people, and force the others to return against their wishes that’s * not* fine. They can have their preference, but it seems wrong to me for their preference to override the preference of others. > I’m not a CEO so it’s not my place to decide what a company does or doesn’t do. Funny, because I’m the owner of my company, but I don’t think employees should defer their decision making to a CEO. An employee can have an opinion, and even demand their preference. CEOs can’t actually make a unilateral decision on this. Labor absolutely gets a say. If the CEO says “RTO or you’re fired”, and 95/100 people say “okay, bye”, then that company won’t RTO.
    - throwaway5959 3y ago
      I never said that employees shouldn’t have preferences (I explicitly stated otherwise in another comment) and shouldn’t have a say in the matter. I was just saying that ultimately the CEO makes the call on RTO (at least that’s what it seems to be at megacorps), whether it’s the right or wrong one isn’t my call.
      - ncallaway 3y ago
        > I was just saying that ultimately the CEO makes the call on RTO (at least that’s what it seems to be at megacorps), whether it’s the right or wrong one isn’t my call. This is the part I was disagreeing with. The CEO does not make that call. The CEO and labor negotiation over that call. If you view it as just the CEO's decision, you've ceded a tremendous amount of power. But, actually, it's a shared decision between the CEO and the entire body of workers. If the body of workers all reject the CEO's decision, then...that decision will get reversed.
        throwaway5959 3y ago
        That’s a great point, thanks. I think we saw that play out at Grindr recently.
    - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
      Hypothetically, would you still feel this way of it turned out that everyone being in the office (remember this is a magical hypothetical) has a significant and demonstrable improvement in productivity? This is more of a level-setting question than any sort of disagreement.
      - guhidalg 3y ago
        Unask this question. Every industry, every company, every team, and every project is different. What works in some places and times doesn't work in others. You have to decide for yourself and your team/company if RTO is what is best, and don't take other's lived experience as your own.
Aldo_MX 3y ago
Well, remote really works if five people are back at the office. That's a point for remote.
- layer8 3y ago
  It may not work for the five people in the office, because it’s not the environment they enjoyed if the 95 other people are not there. This is particularly true if teams are split that way. Nobody should be forced to anything, but that doesn’t mean that an arbitrary mix works.

Kye 3y ago

Manufacturing buggy whips doesn't work if only five people own buggies. This is a problem for the buggy whip manufacturer to solve, not the people who bought a car or took the train. There's a third option beyond forcing everyone into boxes in the middle of nowhere (old and busted) and everyone working from home (new old hotness).

ncallaway 3y ago

You see how that’s inherently about putting the preferences of the 5 people *above* the preferences of the rest of the office, yes?

throwaway5959 3y ago
People are allowed to have different preferences and lifestyles than the majority. I’m not a CEO so it’s not my place to decide what a company does or doesn’t do.
- ncallaway 3y ago
  Right, I think it’s fine for people to have differences and differing preferences. My point is that if 5/100 people want to work in the office and 95/100 don’t, that’s fine. If 5/100 want to work in an office with 100 people, and force the others to return against their wishes that’s * not* fine. They can have their preference, but it seems wrong to me for their preference to override the preference of others. > I’m not a CEO so it’s not my place to decide what a company does or doesn’t do. Funny, because I’m the owner of my company, but I don’t think employees should defer their decision making to a CEO. An employee can have an opinion, and even demand their preference. CEOs can’t actually make a unilateral decision on this. Labor absolutely gets a say. If the CEO says “RTO or you’re fired”, and 95/100 people say “okay, bye”, then that company won’t RTO.
  - throwaway5959 3y ago
    I never said that employees shouldn’t have preferences (I explicitly stated otherwise in another comment) and shouldn’t have a say in the matter. I was just saying that ultimately the CEO makes the call on RTO (at least that’s what it seems to be at megacorps), whether it’s the right or wrong one isn’t my call.
    - ncallaway 3y ago
      > I was just saying that ultimately the CEO makes the call on RTO (at least that’s what it seems to be at megacorps), whether it’s the right or wrong one isn’t my call. This is the part I was disagreeing with. The CEO does not make that call. The CEO and labor negotiation over that call. If you view it as just the CEO's decision, you've ceded a tremendous amount of power. But, actually, it's a shared decision between the CEO and the entire body of workers. If the body of workers all reject the CEO's decision, then...that decision will get reversed.
      - throwaway5959 3y ago
        That’s a great point, thanks. I think we saw that play out at Grindr recently.
  - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
    Hypothetically, would you still feel this way of it turned out that everyone being in the office (remember this is a magical hypothetical) has a significant and demonstrable improvement in productivity? This is more of a level-setting question than any sort of disagreement.
    - guhidalg 3y ago
      Unask this question. Every industry, every company, every team, and every project is different. What works in some places and times doesn't work in others. You have to decide for yourself and your team/company if RTO is what is best, and don't take other's lived experience as your own.

Aldo_MX 3y ago

Well, remote really works if five people are back at the office. That's a point for remote.

layer8 3y ago
It may not work for the five people in the office, because it’s not the environment they enjoyed if the 95 other people are not there. This is particularly true if teams are split that way. Nobody should be forced to anything, but that doesn’t mean that an arbitrary mix works.