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I don't follow the logic the author is using. Let's say we make all public colleges free for students. "Elite" schools will still exist, and top students will s

by itg 3y ago

I don't follow the logic the author is using. Let's say we make all public colleges free for students. "Elite" schools will still exist, and top students will still target schools such as Ivy/MIT/Stanford/etc. One look at the people in executive offices or top political offices and you'll find a substantial portion are graduates from elite schools.

A_D_E_P_T 3y ago
Agreed, and if anything what the author proposes would intensify the competition to get into those elite schools, for it would simultaneously increase the worth of a diploma from an elite school and devalue the diploma from the public college.
- hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
  You could always make public colleges free, and also make the exams to get in actually hard. That comes with its own suite of issues, of course.
  - coryrc 3y ago
    We've done the opposite for decades. We've lowered the bar every year and the quality of k-12 education has dropped significantly. Perhaps now that Lucy Calkins is fully exposed as a fraud, reading can get better? https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/phonics-f-sound-n-y-challenges-reading-18355554.php https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/phonics-f-sound...
- piotrkaminski 3y ago
  > devalue the diploma from the public college Huh? How so? If the only change is that you no longer need to pay for college, but otherwise admission standards and education quality remain the same, then why would the value of a diploma change? Unless the diploma was implicitly a signal for wealth, of course...
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    Wages are based on how easy you are to replace. If a job has a high wage because they require a specific college degree, then making the degree easier to get since you don't have to pay for it, then there will be more people with that degree, so the supply of workers is higher, making them easier to replace, so the wages of those workers goes down.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      To whatever extent your concern is backed up by data, that's an argument for making public colleges free rather than an argument against it, IMO. "Today, children of upper middle class families have a path to getting good paying jobs that the poor are largely shut out from. We don't wish for that change by making public universities free, thereby preventing competition for these desirable jobs by the children of the poor."
      - em-bee 3y ago
        exactly this, the quality of education needs to be improved. not every job today needs a college degree (but that may change in the future with manual jobs being automated away) but the access to a degree should not depend on the income of the parents.
      - jstarfish 3y ago
        It only means that if your goal is to intentionally devalue labor. You're advocating we toss escapees from the crab bucket back into the bucket because it's not fair to the rest of the crabs.
        sokoloff 3y ago
        The alternative can be characterized as trying to keep the lid on the pot to ensure no other crabs escape and charging escaped crabs a fee for their offspring to be able to live outside the pot.
      - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
eli_gottlieb 3y ago
The logic is that a good education is actually useful for the student outside of signaling membership in a zero-sum social elite.
- wwarner 3y ago
  Thanks for saying the obvious in a polite fashion. I started to write something out but realized I'd just cause offense. To me, it's obvious that a better educated society is a better society. We could actually go further and actually pay people to go to school.
flashgordon 3y ago
As an Australian who benefited from a great public college (or as we call it uni) if public schools were free and high quality what would motivate the demand for elite schools? Yes elite schools are still networking grounds. But wouldnt the hope be that if people who already came out of public schools weren't saddled with crippling debt, enough of them could pay it forward to the broader group than their own elite school buddies?
- lesam 3y ago
  If you want to be a CEO, it's a lot better to network with the kids of all the CEO's than the kids of the dentists and middle managers, if you can arrange it.
  - flashgordon 3y ago
    Totally and this is what I imagined elite schools and colleges were providing. Kinda like signalling. But if you don't have the means to hobnob then might as well get educated affordably?
    - arolihas 3y ago
      Hobnobbing with the children of rich families is easier on a college campus compared to moving to Manhattan and trying to climb the social ladder from scratch. The earlier you can get into these circles the better. That's why private schools like Trinity or Andover are so coveted. Even certain daycares are becoming "elite."
      - xboxnolifes 3y ago
        Their point is that not everyone is looking to "hobnob", period. Some (most) people want a decent education and a decent job.
        arolihas 3y ago
        Of course, but that has nothing to do with the demand of elite schools. There's plenty of cheaper decent education options for better outcomes and decent jobs that have proliferated recently (online schooling, bootcamps, etc). But in regards to "elite" institutions, those with more money and a "stronger need" (ie more money) have and continue to drive the demand there.
esarbe 3y ago
Seems to be a cultural issue in the USA, as this is not happening in Europe. Quite the contrary; going to private colleges is very widely perceived as a last-ditch way for rich kids with bad grades to get some paper at least. I guess this in the USA this is an insider/outsider problem where "elite" school insiders prefer other "elite" insiders over other, potentially equally capable candidates.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  There is elitism in hiring within Europe as well. The difference is that most European countries didn't have private universities. And if you go to Western US states, you'll see similar recruiting elitism from top public schools like UCB, UCLA, and UT Austin.
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  What?! Have you never heard of "Les grandes écoles" in France? They are not private but they are absolutely worse than the US ivy leagues when it comes to creating an insider culture. Good luck becoming more than an office drone in some corporations there if you don't graduate from one of those schools.
almatabata 3y ago
Just look at France and L'ENA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_nationale_d%27administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_nationale_d%27admin... A lot of presidents have come from this public school. It shows that just making it public does not really fix the problem of lack of social ascension. With the fierce competition children that get access to private tutors and financial support have the edge.
pknomad 3y ago
I don't either. Part of what makes a school "elite" is admissions selectivity, research output, and academic reputation. Making undergraduate tuition free for public colleges will still make private target schools still elite and put additional admissions constraints on top public colleges (UMich, UVA, UC Berkeley, UCLA, UT Austin, and the likes), and ironically make them more "elite". Also the problem isn't just the affordability of schools - it's affordability of schools for certain classes and enrollment limits for desirable universities. Rich students will be able to pay for elite universities out of pocket. Poor students will be able to afford through financial aid/scholarships at elite universities. I don't have the numbers with me top of my head but most elite universities often have financial policies that cap loans at reasonable amount and give grants to cover the rest. It's the middle class that gets squeezed because they don't make enough money/get enough assistance.
Aaronstotle 3y ago
You can still have elite public universities (UC Berkeley, Michigan)
otoburb 3y ago
>>I don't follow the logic the author is using. The article argues that public colleges being free "[...] will alleviate the student debt crisis and enable low-income students, particularly those of color, to go to college." Your point about elite schools still existing can (and will) be true at the same time in this hypothetical universe where US public college tuition is free.
SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
I tune out as soon as someone says “make it free”. First off, make it tax payer funded is what they mean. And no thank you. Second, we already pay for 13 years of school, why would I believe 4 more years would help? Who is out there championing public school is the excellent model of education? 13th grade is not a solution to anything. It’s clear to me we are facing a complexity crisis and almost no one sees it. People that don’t belong in college aren’t going to be better off when everything is too complex for them as is, and getting worse. A tech at Jiffy Lube needs to know so much more than 20 years ago, but the kid isn’t any smarter at all. The guy pouring concrete needs to know a lot more, paying for his degree won’t help, but it will take 4 years of experience away. IDGAF about “elite schools” if you someone took those away, the rich would self-sort another using another method. The issue here is we aren’t ready to say “we’ve made most of the world too complex for most people in it”. And so have no remedy for that.

by itg 3y ago

A_D_E_P_T 3y ago

Agreed, and if anything what the author proposes would intensify the competition to get into those elite schools, for it would simultaneously increase the worth of a diploma from an elite school and devalue the diploma from the public college.

hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
You could always make public colleges free, and also make the exams to get in actually hard. That comes with its own suite of issues, of course.
- coryrc 3y ago
  We've done the opposite for decades. We've lowered the bar every year and the quality of k-12 education has dropped significantly. Perhaps now that Lucy Calkins is fully exposed as a fraud, reading can get better? https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/phonics-f-sound-n-y-challenges-reading-18355554.php https://www.timesunion.com/education/article/phonics-f-sound...
piotrkaminski 3y ago
> devalue the diploma from the public college Huh? How so? If the only change is that you no longer need to pay for college, but otherwise admission standards and education quality remain the same, then why would the value of a diploma change? Unless the diploma was implicitly a signal for wealth, of course...
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  Wages are based on how easy you are to replace. If a job has a high wage because they require a specific college degree, then making the degree easier to get since you don't have to pay for it, then there will be more people with that degree, so the supply of workers is higher, making them easier to replace, so the wages of those workers goes down.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    To whatever extent your concern is backed up by data, that's an argument for making public colleges free rather than an argument against it, IMO. "Today, children of upper middle class families have a path to getting good paying jobs that the poor are largely shut out from. We don't wish for that change by making public universities free, thereby preventing competition for these desirable jobs by the children of the poor."
    - em-bee 3y ago
      exactly this, the quality of education needs to be improved. not every job today needs a college degree (but that may change in the future with manual jobs being automated away) but the access to a degree should not depend on the income of the parents.
    - jstarfish 3y ago
      It only means that if your goal is to intentionally devalue labor. You're advocating we toss escapees from the crab bucket back into the bucket because it's not fair to the rest of the crabs.
      - sokoloff 3y ago
        The alternative can be characterized as trying to keep the lid on the pot to ensure no other crabs escape and charging escaped crabs a fee for their offspring to be able to live outside the pot.
    - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago

eli_gottlieb 3y ago

The logic is that a good education is actually useful for the student outside of signaling membership in a zero-sum social elite.

wwarner 3y ago
Thanks for saying the obvious in a polite fashion. I started to write something out but realized I'd just cause offense. To me, it's obvious that a better educated society is a better society. We could actually go further and actually pay people to go to school.

flashgordon 3y ago

As an Australian who benefited from a great public college (or as we call it uni) if public schools were free and high quality what would motivate the demand for elite schools? Yes elite schools are still networking grounds. But wouldnt the hope be that if people who already came out of public schools weren't saddled with crippling debt, enough of them could pay it forward to the broader group than their own elite school buddies?

lesam 3y ago
If you want to be a CEO, it's a lot better to network with the kids of all the CEO's than the kids of the dentists and middle managers, if you can arrange it.
- flashgordon 3y ago
  Totally and this is what I imagined elite schools and colleges were providing. Kinda like signalling. But if you don't have the means to hobnob then might as well get educated affordably?
  - arolihas 3y ago
    Hobnobbing with the children of rich families is easier on a college campus compared to moving to Manhattan and trying to climb the social ladder from scratch. The earlier you can get into these circles the better. That's why private schools like Trinity or Andover are so coveted. Even certain daycares are becoming "elite."
    - xboxnolifes 3y ago
      Their point is that not everyone is looking to "hobnob", period. Some (most) people want a decent education and a decent job.
      - arolihas 3y ago
        Of course, but that has nothing to do with the demand of elite schools. There's plenty of cheaper decent education options for better outcomes and decent jobs that have proliferated recently (online schooling, bootcamps, etc). But in regards to "elite" institutions, those with more money and a "stronger need" (ie more money) have and continue to drive the demand there.

esarbe 3y ago

Seems to be a cultural issue in the USA, as this is not happening in Europe. Quite the contrary; going to private colleges is very widely perceived as a last-ditch way for rich kids with bad grades to get some paper at least. I guess this in the USA this is an insider/outsider problem where "elite" school insiders prefer other "elite" insiders over other, potentially equally capable candidates.

alephnerd 3y ago
There is elitism in hiring within Europe as well. The difference is that most European countries didn't have private universities. And if you go to Western US states, you'll see similar recruiting elitism from top public schools like UCB, UCLA, and UT Austin.
mardifoufs 3y ago
What?! Have you never heard of "Les grandes écoles" in France? They are not private but they are absolutely worse than the US ivy leagues when it comes to creating an insider culture. Good luck becoming more than an office drone in some corporations there if you don't graduate from one of those schools.

almatabata 3y ago

Just look at France and L'ENA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_nationale_d%27administration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_nationale_d%27admin... A lot of presidents have come from this public school. It shows that just making it public does not really fix the problem of lack of social ascension. With the fierce competition children that get access to private tutors and financial support have the edge.

pknomad 3y ago

I don't either. Part of what makes a school "elite" is admissions selectivity, research output, and academic reputation. Making undergraduate tuition free for public colleges will still make private target schools still elite and put additional admissions constraints on top public colleges (UMich, UVA, UC Berkeley, UCLA, UT Austin, and the likes), and ironically make them more "elite". Also the problem isn't just the affordability of schools - it's affordability of schools for certain classes and enrollment limits for desirable universities. Rich students will be able to pay for elite universities out of pocket. Poor students will be able to afford through financial aid/scholarships at elite universities. I don't have the numbers with me top of my head but most elite universities often have financial policies that cap loans at reasonable amount and give grants to cover the rest. It's the middle class that gets squeezed because they don't make enough money/get enough assistance.

Aaronstotle 3y ago

You can still have elite public universities (UC Berkeley, Michigan)

otoburb 3y ago

>>I don't follow the logic the author is using. The article argues that public colleges being free "[...] will alleviate the student debt crisis and enable low-income students, particularly those of color, to go to college." Your point about elite schools still existing can (and will) be true at the same time in this hypothetical universe where US public college tuition is free.

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago

I tune out as soon as someone says “make it free”. First off, make it tax payer funded is what they mean. And no thank you. Second, we already pay for 13 years of school, why would I believe 4 more years would help? Who is out there championing public school is the excellent model of education? 13th grade is not a solution to anything. It’s clear to me we are facing a complexity crisis and almost no one sees it. People that don’t belong in college aren’t going to be better off when everything is too complex for them as is, and getting worse. A tech at Jiffy Lube needs to know so much more than 20 years ago, but the kid isn’t any smarter at all. The guy pouring concrete needs to know a lot more, paying for his degree won’t help, but it will take 4 years of experience away. IDGAF about “elite schools” if you someone took those away, the rich would self-sort another using another method. The issue here is we aren’t ready to say “we’ve made most of the world too complex for most people in it”. And so have no remedy for that.