7 ms·

It’s hard not to be pessimistic in Germany these days. Population is aging and paying for the retirement money for all existing retirees is already taking up o

It’s hard not to be pessimistic in Germany these days. Population is aging and paying for the retirement money for all existing retirees is already taking up over 25% of government spending. There’s barely money for anything else so taxes and social security payments are poised to go up while already being close to ~50% for most earners. There’s a strong and growing far-right movement full of populist and even neo-nazi ideologies. Infrastructure is still top notch internationally but funding has been cut over the last decades and it’s starting to show. I could go on but I think you get the picture. Many people in my social circle want to leave the country so I would really think twice about moving here.

andersa 3y ago
> Many people in my social circle want to leave the country And go where?
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  France? Belgium? US? UK? Ireland? Austria? Switzerland? Poland? Czechia? Luxembourg? Netherlands? Norway? Sweden? Denmark? There's no perfect country, just one where you have the least amount of compromises. Or where your family unit is.
  - tejinderss 3y ago
    > Ireland Good luck with finding housing here.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      You can say the same thing about Berlin. Every livable tech hub is full.
  - jabradoodle 3y ago
    I wouldn't suggest putting the UK in that list, absolutely crumbling and showing no signs of stopping.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      If you work in tech you'll be fine there.
      - alphager 3y ago
        And you'd be fine in Germany. HN paints an overly gloomy picture of Germany. All points mentioned contain a kernel of truth but also a pessimistic linear regression concerning the outlook of the future. We've got a very minor recession going on, that's all. The economy will turn around next year. The energy crisis is of the higher price than usual variety (and is already way past its peak; look at the 5y chart: https://ycharts.com/indicators/germany_natural_gas_border_price https://ycharts.com/indicators/germany_natural_gas_border_pr...). The greenefication of our electrical grid is ongoing and will cost us a ton of money over the next 5-10 years, but will pay off after that (yes, it would have been better to keep the atomic power plants running until then; that's one of the few irrational decision done by the previous conservative government and confirmed by the current government). We had a large immigration spike in 2015 and another one in 2022 (Syria and Ukraine), overfilling the immigration centers. Aging population is a thing, as in any other western country. Turns out that immigration is one of the things that counteracts it! And we're currently (and for the next decade) in serious need of unskilled labor, so even the 40% of syrian refugees that haven't gotten work yet (many of those because of the slow bureaucracy...) will be needed. It's certainly not all sunshine and rainbows, but it's also certainly not a crumbling country without a future.
        FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >Turns out that immigration is one of the things that counteracts it! But where will they live? Germany has a housing shortage it refuses to fix, but is constantly importing more economic cannon fodder.
        Xylakant 3y ago
        „Germany“ doesn‘t have a housing shortage. German cities do, and it‘s a huge problem. But on the other hand, Germany also has a huge infrastructure deficit in more rural areas - I live in Berlin and would happily vacate my flat to move to a 2nd or 3rd tier small town, but that means giving up on solid public transport, connectivity, supermarket next door, walkability and fast internet in many many places. Work wouldn’t be an issue, our company is remote anyways, but all of these things are a huge problem. Fixing those issues would mean less people want to move to the city, less pressure on the housing market etc.
  - Gud 3y ago
    I live in Switzerland since a few years back. I love Switzerland, it is the best country in the world I've ever been, by far. Unless you want to live in a mega city or on the coast. The only drawback is you must speak either French, Italian or learn Swiss-Deutch, a very difficult German dialect to learn. I'd scratch France, Belgium, Sweden and the UK off that list. I've worked 6+ months in all those countries and well, they're not great. What's worse is they're going in the wrong direction. I'm from Sweden and it is rapidly deteriorating. It saddens me greatly to say this, but I don't think my home country has a very bright future. When you hear the politicians talk it seems they finally realize that they have fucked up the country. But not to what extent, and their solutions are a joke. It will only get worse, and it will never be the same. Before you consider Belgium, I suggest you spend some time in Brussels. You will know what I mean. Maybe Flanders... I really like Antwerp, actually it's one of my favorite cities. If you like beer, you will love Antwerp. I was working in Antwerp for a long time. But why bother with Belgium when Netherlands is right there? The UK is dirty and the cities are full of homeless and it has a byzantine bureaucracy on top of everything. I'm currently working in Liverpool(not by choice, posted by my company) but I have been pretty much all over the U.K. Some places are better than others, the country side is all right, but still. Don't go there. The U.K. truly is a dying empire.
    - TMWNN 3y ago
      >I'm from Sweden and it is rapidly deteriorating. It saddens me greatly to say this, but I don't think my home country has a very bright future. When you hear the politicians talk it seems they finally realize that they have fucked up the country. But not to what extent, and their solutions are a joke. It will only get worse, and it will never be the same. Context for others: Sweden has no language, income, employment, or skills requirement <https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Apply-for-citizenship/Citizenship-for-adults.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...> for obtaining citizenship. In completely unrelated news, Arabic is now the second most spoken language in Sweden <https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=7047637a-c5f5-4297-9afa-a273dd443a9a https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_po...>.
- peer2pay 3y ago
  I think that’s a fair question. The grass is always greener but most are thinking about Scandinavian countries or the Netherlands. For me, climate change should also factor into this. While Germany will probably be fine temperature wise, I’m not sure if I’d considered moving to Southern Europe anymore.
  - angra_mainyu 3y ago
    Really? Having been in those places that's like going from bad to worse.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      Where is it going from bad to worse?
- usrusr 3y ago
  One person I know went to the United States. Ten to Switzerland. Zero anywhere else on the planet. Not sure the US guy counts though, quite possible that it's only a temporary assignment from his home employer. If you wonder what the Swiss do, when all those Germans take their jobs: my observation, utterly anecdotal of course, is that they commute to Liechtenstein.
  - dgellow 3y ago
    Seeing that we are at the level of anecdotes, as a Swiss I went to Germany and don’t plan to ever go back. Other friends went to the UK, Japan, the US, Canada. So there is that. And not because foreigners take our jobs, that’s an utterly absurd concept, Switzerland wouldn’t be the country it is without cross border workers and people immigrating. Our dumb isolationist and social conservative politics are costing the country and community a lot.
- mharig 3y ago
  I would say 'South America'. But I do not want more Germans (or other decadent Konsumvieh from industrialised nation states) here.
protortyp 3y ago
I strongly agree. Much of my social circle went to Amsterdam in hopes of better salaries and the tax benefit for the first few years.
lnsru 3y ago
Well when a refugee with 2 kids gets 1890€ in cash, Kindergeld on top, free health insurance and free housing… I am also becoming very quickly populist and even neo-nazi follower. That’s income level of white collar worker after university studies and few years work experience. This nonsense with uncontrolled immigration must be over asap. Get the people some warm shelter and warm food, don’t throw money at them!
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  > I am also becoming very quickly populist and even neo-nazi follower Yikes. Go read a history book before you end up like your predecessors from the 30s and 40s.
- killdozer 3y ago
  "Look, you're just FORCING me to become a 'neo-nazi follower' by helping these people too much!"
  - zuzu89 3y ago
    This is what happens when the established parties refuse to do anything about it and don't even address the issue seriously, instead immediately labeling people who see the problem as "Nazis." The obvious conclusion from this is that these people are inevitably supporting parties that see this is an issue.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    It’s a very poor tasteful way of saying anti-immigrant sentiment doesn’t appear in a vacuum. That some auto label such people with this sentiment as neo Nazis is another issue.
  - Gud 3y ago
    A more apt description would be, taking money from Insrus pocket and giving it to someone else. Someone who deliberately broke the rules and exploited a system designed to help people in need. I'd be pissed too if that were to happen to me.
  - 3y ago
sneed_chucker 3y ago
The far-right movements are a completely predictable and preventable result of the immigration policy of the last 2 decades.
nicbou 3y ago
The same is true everywhere else, and there a mix of unrest and despondency grows from it. Society has failed this generation the world over.

andersa 3y ago

> Many people in my social circle want to leave the country And go where?

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
France? Belgium? US? UK? Ireland? Austria? Switzerland? Poland? Czechia? Luxembourg? Netherlands? Norway? Sweden? Denmark? There's no perfect country, just one where you have the least amount of compromises. Or where your family unit is.
- tejinderss 3y ago
  > Ireland Good luck with finding housing here.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    You can say the same thing about Berlin. Every livable tech hub is full.
- jabradoodle 3y ago
  I wouldn't suggest putting the UK in that list, absolutely crumbling and showing no signs of stopping.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    If you work in tech you'll be fine there.
    - alphager 3y ago
      And you'd be fine in Germany. HN paints an overly gloomy picture of Germany. All points mentioned contain a kernel of truth but also a pessimistic linear regression concerning the outlook of the future. We've got a very minor recession going on, that's all. The economy will turn around next year. The energy crisis is of the higher price than usual variety (and is already way past its peak; look at the 5y chart: https://ycharts.com/indicators/germany_natural_gas_border_price https://ycharts.com/indicators/germany_natural_gas_border_pr...). The greenefication of our electrical grid is ongoing and will cost us a ton of money over the next 5-10 years, but will pay off after that (yes, it would have been better to keep the atomic power plants running until then; that's one of the few irrational decision done by the previous conservative government and confirmed by the current government). We had a large immigration spike in 2015 and another one in 2022 (Syria and Ukraine), overfilling the immigration centers. Aging population is a thing, as in any other western country. Turns out that immigration is one of the things that counteracts it! And we're currently (and for the next decade) in serious need of unskilled labor, so even the 40% of syrian refugees that haven't gotten work yet (many of those because of the slow bureaucracy...) will be needed. It's certainly not all sunshine and rainbows, but it's also certainly not a crumbling country without a future.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >Turns out that immigration is one of the things that counteracts it! But where will they live? Germany has a housing shortage it refuses to fix, but is constantly importing more economic cannon fodder.
        Xylakant 3y ago
        „Germany“ doesn‘t have a housing shortage. German cities do, and it‘s a huge problem. But on the other hand, Germany also has a huge infrastructure deficit in more rural areas - I live in Berlin and would happily vacate my flat to move to a 2nd or 3rd tier small town, but that means giving up on solid public transport, connectivity, supermarket next door, walkability and fast internet in many many places. Work wouldn’t be an issue, our company is remote anyways, but all of these things are a huge problem. Fixing those issues would mean less people want to move to the city, less pressure on the housing market etc.
- Gud 3y ago
  I live in Switzerland since a few years back. I love Switzerland, it is the best country in the world I've ever been, by far. Unless you want to live in a mega city or on the coast. The only drawback is you must speak either French, Italian or learn Swiss-Deutch, a very difficult German dialect to learn. I'd scratch France, Belgium, Sweden and the UK off that list. I've worked 6+ months in all those countries and well, they're not great. What's worse is they're going in the wrong direction. I'm from Sweden and it is rapidly deteriorating. It saddens me greatly to say this, but I don't think my home country has a very bright future. When you hear the politicians talk it seems they finally realize that they have fucked up the country. But not to what extent, and their solutions are a joke. It will only get worse, and it will never be the same. Before you consider Belgium, I suggest you spend some time in Brussels. You will know what I mean. Maybe Flanders... I really like Antwerp, actually it's one of my favorite cities. If you like beer, you will love Antwerp. I was working in Antwerp for a long time. But why bother with Belgium when Netherlands is right there? The UK is dirty and the cities are full of homeless and it has a byzantine bureaucracy on top of everything. I'm currently working in Liverpool(not by choice, posted by my company) but I have been pretty much all over the U.K. Some places are better than others, the country side is all right, but still. Don't go there. The U.K. truly is a dying empire.
  - TMWNN 3y ago
    >I'm from Sweden and it is rapidly deteriorating. It saddens me greatly to say this, but I don't think my home country has a very bright future. When you hear the politicians talk it seems they finally realize that they have fucked up the country. But not to what extent, and their solutions are a joke. It will only get worse, and it will never be the same. Context for others: Sweden has no language, income, employment, or skills requirement <https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Apply-for-citizenship/Citizenship-for-adults.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...> for obtaining citizenship. In completely unrelated news, Arabic is now the second most spoken language in Sweden <https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_popover.aspx?guid=7047637a-c5f5-4297-9afa-a273dd443a9a https://digitaledition.chicagotribune.com/tribune/article_po...>.
peer2pay 3y ago
I think that’s a fair question. The grass is always greener but most are thinking about Scandinavian countries or the Netherlands. For me, climate change should also factor into this. While Germany will probably be fine temperature wise, I’m not sure if I’d considered moving to Southern Europe anymore.
- angra_mainyu 3y ago
  Really? Having been in those places that's like going from bad to worse.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Where is it going from bad to worse?
usrusr 3y ago
One person I know went to the United States. Ten to Switzerland. Zero anywhere else on the planet. Not sure the US guy counts though, quite possible that it's only a temporary assignment from his home employer. If you wonder what the Swiss do, when all those Germans take their jobs: my observation, utterly anecdotal of course, is that they commute to Liechtenstein.
- dgellow 3y ago
  Seeing that we are at the level of anecdotes, as a Swiss I went to Germany and don’t plan to ever go back. Other friends went to the UK, Japan, the US, Canada. So there is that. And not because foreigners take our jobs, that’s an utterly absurd concept, Switzerland wouldn’t be the country it is without cross border workers and people immigrating. Our dumb isolationist and social conservative politics are costing the country and community a lot.
mharig 3y ago
I would say 'South America'. But I do not want more Germans (or other decadent Konsumvieh from industrialised nation states) here.

protortyp 3y ago

I strongly agree. Much of my social circle went to Amsterdam in hopes of better salaries and the tax benefit for the first few years.

lnsru 3y ago

Well when a refugee with 2 kids gets 1890€ in cash, Kindergeld on top, free health insurance and free housing… I am also becoming very quickly populist and even neo-nazi follower. That’s income level of white collar worker after university studies and few years work experience. This nonsense with uncontrolled immigration must be over asap. Get the people some warm shelter and warm food, don’t throw money at them!

bugglebeetle 3y ago
> I am also becoming very quickly populist and even neo-nazi follower Yikes. Go read a history book before you end up like your predecessors from the 30s and 40s.
killdozer 3y ago
"Look, you're just FORCING me to become a 'neo-nazi follower' by helping these people too much!"
- zuzu89 3y ago
  This is what happens when the established parties refuse to do anything about it and don't even address the issue seriously, instead immediately labeling people who see the problem as "Nazis." The obvious conclusion from this is that these people are inevitably supporting parties that see this is an issue.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  It’s a very poor tasteful way of saying anti-immigrant sentiment doesn’t appear in a vacuum. That some auto label such people with this sentiment as neo Nazis is another issue.
- Gud 3y ago
  A more apt description would be, taking money from Insrus pocket and giving it to someone else. Someone who deliberately broke the rules and exploited a system designed to help people in need. I'd be pissed too if that were to happen to me.
- 3y ago

sneed_chucker 3y ago

The far-right movements are a completely predictable and preventable result of the immigration policy of the last 2 decades.

nicbou 3y ago

The same is true everywhere else, and there a mix of unrest and despondency grows from it. Society has failed this generation the world over.