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Xinjiang internment camps: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps Censorship in Ch

Xinjiang internment camps: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps Censorship in China: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China Four Cardinal Principles (enshrined in the constitution): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Cardinal_Principles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Cardinal_Principles Open Constitution Initiative (shut down by the government): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Constitution_Initiative https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Constitution_Initiative The issues are plain, endemic, and well-documented. It is not propaganda.

endisneigh 3y ago
By what criteria is it worse than things in United States? You could look at prisoners per capita and say USA is worse. Your selections seem arbitrary
- catiopatio 3y ago
  By all human rights measures, it is worse. Freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of religion … you name it. Feel free to read the yearly reports from the HRW: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/china https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/china Random selection from the report: > In May, a court in Hainan province sentenced former journalist Luo Changping to seven months in prison for a Weibo post that questioned China’s justification for its involvement in the Korean War. Details on his case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luo_Changping#Arrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luo_Changping#Arrest > Sanya Ji'an Police Bureau summoned Luo for investigation into his "illegal remarks" suspected of "insulting heroes and martyrs".
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    Sure, but China has lifted nearly a billion out of poverty in the last half century. Would it be superior if that didn’t happen but there was no censorship?
    - catiopatio 3y ago
      Human rights and human prosperity aren’t mutually exclusive. On top of which, they did such a terrible job of lifting people out of poverty, they unnecessarily killed tens of millions in the deadliest famine in human history: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/
      - endisneigh 3y ago
        Sure. Im saying they did a good thing, you’re saying they did bad. I think lifting a billion out of abject poverty is overall net positive against freedom of speech. There’s no objective way to say one way or another overall. If you look at removal of poverty China is unquestionably better. There’s simply no unbiased way you could say China is better or worse overall. Any weights you apply to certain things are inherently biased.
        catiopatio 3y ago
        I don’t believe you’re engaging in good faith; you are employing tactics meant to stifle discourse: 1. False Equivalence: Suggesting that economic progress and freedom of speech are interchangeable or mutually exclusive is intentionally misleading. 2. Relativism: By stating there's "no objective way" to compare, you are deflecting any form of critical evaluation. 3. Unfalsifiability: Your assertion that any evaluation is "inherently biased" is an unfalsifiable claim meant to immunize your argument from critique.
        smsm42 3y ago
        Yes, there is an objective way to say that you don't have to institute a fascist totalitarian regime to make people not starve. It is witnessed by the fact that many countries do not have a fascist totalitarian regime, and still do not starve. In fact, mountains of evidence - including in recent Chinese history - point to the fact that a fascist totalitarian government is more likely to cause a mass starvation than to prevent one. Yes, the current fascist dictatorship finally learned how not to make people starve. It doesn't prove it is the only solution to starvation, and the choice is either starvation or fascism - it only makes this particular totalitarian dictatorship a bit less horrible. But still plenty horrible.
  - brabel 3y ago
    > By all human rights measures, it is worse. Freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of religion … you name it. I don't think anyone is saying China has "more freedom". But that does not seem to automatically imply that's "worse", which seems to be your ground assumption! If you believe more freedom is always better, do you agree that social media should have absolutely no moderation? If you don't, then it seems to me you concede that freedom is good, but up to a limit. Then the question become, does China have the right amount of freedom or the USA does? How about the EU, which is quite noticeably less free than the USA? I don't think the answer to these questions are nearly as obvious as you seem to believe by making such blank statements, which leads me to agree with the other person that this is something someone helplessly affected by good old propaganda would do without realizing it (good propaganda is like that, you have no idea you're affected, trying to recognize that is very important).
    - catiopatio 3y ago
      You have conspicuously avoided addressing the specific, systemic human rights abuses unique to China. Instead, your post employs a series of rhetorical tactics aimed at stifling constructive dialogue: First, you assert a false equivalency between China and the USA/EU by trivializing the qualitative difference in freedom levels, thereby attempting to normalize authoritarianism. Second, you use a slippery slope argument about social media moderation to suggest that all limitations on freedom are essentially the same — equating limited, private content moderation with systemic human rights abuses by government. Third, you engage in an ad hominem attack by accusing me of being influenced by propaganda without providing substantive counter-arguments. Were I to adopt your approach, I could easily make similar sweeping ad hominem accusations based on your behavior here.
      - brabel 3y ago
        This response is comic. Are you sure I am the one stifling dialogue? I did not assert any false equivalence, that's your mistaken interpretation. Given your poor reading skills, I agree there's no reason to continue a dialogue, actually.
pacija 3y ago
Wikipedia is so funny. I like to read topics about contraversial stuff related to my region of Balkans, both hr. (Croatian) and sr. (Serbian) versions. For the same topic, one side says national heroes, the other war criminals. One side's terrorists are other side's freedom fighters. One side's nazi collaborators are other side's innocent communist victims. And so on. So, what's the truth? I guess whatever one chooses to believe. I like to create my truths from many different, contraversial or sometimes completely opposing sources on same topic. Your links are all in english language, in en. section of Wikipedia.

endisneigh 3y ago

By what criteria is it worse than things in United States? You could look at prisoners per capita and say USA is worse. Your selections seem arbitrary

catiopatio 3y ago
By all human rights measures, it is worse. Freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of religion … you name it. Feel free to read the yearly reports from the HRW: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/china https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/china Random selection from the report: > In May, a court in Hainan province sentenced former journalist Luo Changping to seven months in prison for a Weibo post that questioned China’s justification for its involvement in the Korean War. Details on his case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luo_Changping#Arrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luo_Changping#Arrest > Sanya Ji'an Police Bureau summoned Luo for investigation into his "illegal remarks" suspected of "insulting heroes and martyrs".
- endisneigh 3y ago
  Sure, but China has lifted nearly a billion out of poverty in the last half century. Would it be superior if that didn’t happen but there was no censorship?
  - catiopatio 3y ago
    Human rights and human prosperity aren’t mutually exclusive. On top of which, they did such a terrible job of lifting people out of poverty, they unnecessarily killed tens of millions in the deadliest famine in human history: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/
    - endisneigh 3y ago
      Sure. Im saying they did a good thing, you’re saying they did bad. I think lifting a billion out of abject poverty is overall net positive against freedom of speech. There’s no objective way to say one way or another overall. If you look at removal of poverty China is unquestionably better. There’s simply no unbiased way you could say China is better or worse overall. Any weights you apply to certain things are inherently biased.
      - catiopatio 3y ago
        I don’t believe you’re engaging in good faith; you are employing tactics meant to stifle discourse: 1. False Equivalence: Suggesting that economic progress and freedom of speech are interchangeable or mutually exclusive is intentionally misleading. 2. Relativism: By stating there's "no objective way" to compare, you are deflecting any form of critical evaluation. 3. Unfalsifiability: Your assertion that any evaluation is "inherently biased" is an unfalsifiable claim meant to immunize your argument from critique.
      - smsm42 3y ago
        Yes, there is an objective way to say that you don't have to institute a fascist totalitarian regime to make people not starve. It is witnessed by the fact that many countries do not have a fascist totalitarian regime, and still do not starve. In fact, mountains of evidence - including in recent Chinese history - point to the fact that a fascist totalitarian government is more likely to cause a mass starvation than to prevent one. Yes, the current fascist dictatorship finally learned how not to make people starve. It doesn't prove it is the only solution to starvation, and the choice is either starvation or fascism - it only makes this particular totalitarian dictatorship a bit less horrible. But still plenty horrible.
- brabel 3y ago
  > By all human rights measures, it is worse. Freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of religion … you name it. I don't think anyone is saying China has "more freedom". But that does not seem to automatically imply that's "worse", which seems to be your ground assumption! If you believe more freedom is always better, do you agree that social media should have absolutely no moderation? If you don't, then it seems to me you concede that freedom is good, but up to a limit. Then the question become, does China have the right amount of freedom or the USA does? How about the EU, which is quite noticeably less free than the USA? I don't think the answer to these questions are nearly as obvious as you seem to believe by making such blank statements, which leads me to agree with the other person that this is something someone helplessly affected by good old propaganda would do without realizing it (good propaganda is like that, you have no idea you're affected, trying to recognize that is very important).
  - catiopatio 3y ago
    You have conspicuously avoided addressing the specific, systemic human rights abuses unique to China. Instead, your post employs a series of rhetorical tactics aimed at stifling constructive dialogue: First, you assert a false equivalency between China and the USA/EU by trivializing the qualitative difference in freedom levels, thereby attempting to normalize authoritarianism. Second, you use a slippery slope argument about social media moderation to suggest that all limitations on freedom are essentially the same — equating limited, private content moderation with systemic human rights abuses by government. Third, you engage in an ad hominem attack by accusing me of being influenced by propaganda without providing substantive counter-arguments. Were I to adopt your approach, I could easily make similar sweeping ad hominem accusations based on your behavior here.
    - brabel 3y ago
      This response is comic. Are you sure I am the one stifling dialogue? I did not assert any false equivalence, that's your mistaken interpretation. Given your poor reading skills, I agree there's no reason to continue a dialogue, actually.

pacija 3y ago

Wikipedia is so funny. I like to read topics about contraversial stuff related to my region of Balkans, both hr. (Croatian) and sr. (Serbian) versions. For the same topic, one side says national heroes, the other war criminals. One side's terrorists are other side's freedom fighters. One side's nazi collaborators are other side's innocent communist victims. And so on. So, what's the truth? I guess whatever one chooses to believe. I like to create my truths from many different, contraversial or sometimes completely opposing sources on same topic. Your links are all in english language, in en. section of Wikipedia.