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For all the faults of western democracies, the Chinese Communist Party is far worse. That’s not anti-China propaganda. You comment on this issue a surprising a

For all the faults of western democracies, the Chinese Communist Party is far worse. That’s not anti-China propaganda. You comment on this issue a surprising amount, and clearly feel strongly about the US’ views on China. I’d be curious as to exactly how you feel China is being judged unfairly.

chrischen 3y ago
Stating something is far worse as if it is objective fact is propaganda.
- catiopatio 3y ago
  Xinjiang internment camps: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps Censorship in China: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China Four Cardinal Principles (enshrined in the constitution): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Cardinal_Principles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Cardinal_Principles Open Constitution Initiative (shut down by the government): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Constitution_Initiative https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Constitution_Initiative The issues are plain, endemic, and well-documented. It is not propaganda.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    By what criteria is it worse than things in United States? You could look at prisoners per capita and say USA is worse. Your selections seem arbitrary
    - catiopatio 3y ago
      By all human rights measures, it is worse. Freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of religion … you name it. Feel free to read the yearly reports from the HRW: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/china https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/china Random selection from the report: > In May, a court in Hainan province sentenced former journalist Luo Changping to seven months in prison for a Weibo post that questioned China’s justification for its involvement in the Korean War. Details on his case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luo_Changping#Arrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luo_Changping#Arrest > Sanya Ji'an Police Bureau summoned Luo for investigation into his "illegal remarks" suspected of "insulting heroes and martyrs".
      - endisneigh 3y ago
        Sure, but China has lifted nearly a billion out of poverty in the last half century. Would it be superior if that didn’t happen but there was no censorship?
        catiopatio 3y ago
        Human rights and human prosperity aren’t mutually exclusive. On top of which, they did such a terrible job of lifting people out of poverty, they unnecessarily killed tens of millions in the deadliest famine in human history: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/
        endisneigh 3y ago
        Sure. Im saying they did a good thing, you’re saying they did bad. I think lifting a billion out of abject poverty is overall net positive against freedom of speech. There’s no objective way to say one way or another overall. If you look at removal of poverty China is unquestionably better. There’s simply no unbiased way you could say China is better or worse overall. Any weights you apply to certain things are inherently biased.
        catiopatio 3y ago
        I don’t believe you’re engaging in good faith; you are employing tactics meant to stifle discourse: 1. False Equivalence: Suggesting that economic progress and freedom of speech are interchangeable or mutually exclusive is intentionally misleading. 2. Relativism: By stating there's "no objective way" to compare, you are deflecting any form of critical evaluation. 3. Unfalsifiability: Your assertion that any evaluation is "inherently biased" is an unfalsifiable claim meant to immunize your argument from critique.
        smsm42 3y ago
        Yes, there is an objective way to say that you don't have to institute a fascist totalitarian regime to make people not starve. It is witnessed by the fact that many countries do not have a fascist totalitarian regime, and still do not starve. In fact, mountains of evidence - including in recent Chinese history - point to the fact that a fascist totalitarian government is more likely to cause a mass starvation than to prevent one. Yes, the current fascist dictatorship finally learned how not to make people starve. It doesn't prove it is the only solution to starvation, and the choice is either starvation or fascism - it only makes this particular totalitarian dictatorship a bit less horrible. But still plenty horrible.
  - pacija 3y ago
    Wikipedia is so funny. I like to read topics about contraversial stuff related to my region of Balkans, both hr. (Croatian) and sr. (Serbian) versions. For the same topic, one side says national heroes, the other war criminals. One side's terrorists are other side's freedom fighters. One side's nazi collaborators are other side's innocent communist victims. And so on. So, what's the truth? I guess whatever one chooses to believe. I like to create my truths from many different, contraversial or sometimes completely opposing sources on same topic. Your links are all in english language, in en. section of Wikipedia.
- smsm42 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    Objective here is subjective. From the point of view of the CCP I’m sure everything is going swimmingly.
    - smsm42 3y ago
      Existence of "point of view" does not make it subjective. You can think the moon is made of Swiss cheese, that doesn't make its composition subjective, it just makes you wrong.
      - Aeolun 3y ago
        Yeah, I’m fairly certain that does not apply to ‘Is my country doing well’, since the measures used are human defined. If you put zero value on personal freedom (which isn’t objectively better, that’s just pure opinion) the equation changes.
        smsm42 3y ago
        Criteria like "not starving", "not being murdered", "not being raped", "not being put into concentration camp for following your own religion", "not being imprisoned for criticizing the government" is pretty objective, and I have yet to see a culture where being raped and murdered is praised and desired by people. I am sure whatever are the cultural differences in China, they like starvation, rape, murder and imprisonment as little as we do. So the country which does such things to its citizens, massively, is not "doing well", even if its citizens aren't allowed to say so aloud (and that's another sign it's not doing well - "I can't complain" can mean two things, and in China it means you'd be in prison if you do).
  - helpfulContrib 3y ago
    [flagged]
- stevenhuang 3y ago
  Put yourself in the shoes of a political dissident. Would you rather be a citizen of China or USA?
  - tehjoker 3y ago
    Yes, let's see how many of you volunteer to be the Black Lives Matter leaders that died in mysterious accidents and car fires.
    - Aeolun 3y ago
      Are you claiming that was government organized?
      - tehjoker 3y ago
        Are you claiming that the main target of the protests, police, or their allies aren't prime suspects?
  - helpfulContrib 3y ago
    Julian Assange, currently being chemically lobotomized in one of the Wests' most heinously vile palaces of torture - without trial, without justice - would like you to very carefully reconsider your position with regards to political dissidents. So would Australias Witnesses J, K, L, M, N and O .. who have been disappeared into a military Star Court, for the sake of political dissidence. Be very careful with your castigation of China. We have far, far more political dissidents in our prisons than you know about. And that is by design.
    - stevenhuang 3y ago
      I'm aware and I'm not an apologist for US. What I mean to emphasize is that net net, one expects more of the semblance of a rule of law in western jurisdictions. It's why cases like Julian Assange are as controversial as they are, with public organizations in USA willing to make the case to support him and inquire on his well-being. Our media is controlled but there is semblance of free press. You don't have even that in China. If you're a dissident in China you'd be hard pressed garnering support from any org. I don't presume to have a complete picture. Maybe if I did it may suggest USA is in reality more like China. But from all that I've seen, authoritarian governments like China continue to have serious shortcomings in the kinds of freedoms we take for granted in the West.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
helpfulContrib 3y ago
[flagged]

chrischen 3y ago

Stating something is far worse as if it is objective fact is propaganda.

catiopatio 3y ago
Xinjiang internment camps: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps Censorship in China: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China Four Cardinal Principles (enshrined in the constitution): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Cardinal_Principles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Cardinal_Principles Open Constitution Initiative (shut down by the government): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Constitution_Initiative https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Constitution_Initiative The issues are plain, endemic, and well-documented. It is not propaganda.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  By what criteria is it worse than things in United States? You could look at prisoners per capita and say USA is worse. Your selections seem arbitrary
  - catiopatio 3y ago
    By all human rights measures, it is worse. Freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of religion … you name it. Feel free to read the yearly reports from the HRW: https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/china https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2023/country-chapters/china Random selection from the report: > In May, a court in Hainan province sentenced former journalist Luo Changping to seven months in prison for a Weibo post that questioned China’s justification for its involvement in the Korean War. Details on his case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luo_Changping#Arrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luo_Changping#Arrest > Sanya Ji'an Police Bureau summoned Luo for investigation into his "illegal remarks" suspected of "insulting heroes and martyrs".
    - endisneigh 3y ago
      Sure, but China has lifted nearly a billion out of poverty in the last half century. Would it be superior if that didn’t happen but there was no censorship?
      - catiopatio 3y ago
        Human rights and human prosperity aren’t mutually exclusive. On top of which, they did such a terrible job of lifting people out of poverty, they unnecessarily killed tens of millions in the deadliest famine in human history: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127087/
        endisneigh 3y ago
        Sure. Im saying they did a good thing, you’re saying they did bad. I think lifting a billion out of abject poverty is overall net positive against freedom of speech. There’s no objective way to say one way or another overall. If you look at removal of poverty China is unquestionably better. There’s simply no unbiased way you could say China is better or worse overall. Any weights you apply to certain things are inherently biased.
        catiopatio 3y ago
        I don’t believe you’re engaging in good faith; you are employing tactics meant to stifle discourse: 1. False Equivalence: Suggesting that economic progress and freedom of speech are interchangeable or mutually exclusive is intentionally misleading. 2. Relativism: By stating there's "no objective way" to compare, you are deflecting any form of critical evaluation. 3. Unfalsifiability: Your assertion that any evaluation is "inherently biased" is an unfalsifiable claim meant to immunize your argument from critique.
        smsm42 3y ago
        Yes, there is an objective way to say that you don't have to institute a fascist totalitarian regime to make people not starve. It is witnessed by the fact that many countries do not have a fascist totalitarian regime, and still do not starve. In fact, mountains of evidence - including in recent Chinese history - point to the fact that a fascist totalitarian government is more likely to cause a mass starvation than to prevent one. Yes, the current fascist dictatorship finally learned how not to make people starve. It doesn't prove it is the only solution to starvation, and the choice is either starvation or fascism - it only makes this particular totalitarian dictatorship a bit less horrible. But still plenty horrible.
- pacija 3y ago
  Wikipedia is so funny. I like to read topics about contraversial stuff related to my region of Balkans, both hr. (Croatian) and sr. (Serbian) versions. For the same topic, one side says national heroes, the other war criminals. One side's terrorists are other side's freedom fighters. One side's nazi collaborators are other side's innocent communist victims. And so on. So, what's the truth? I guess whatever one chooses to believe. I like to create my truths from many different, contraversial or sometimes completely opposing sources on same topic. Your links are all in english language, in en. section of Wikipedia.
smsm42 3y ago
[flagged]
- Aeolun 3y ago
  Objective here is subjective. From the point of view of the CCP I’m sure everything is going swimmingly.
  - smsm42 3y ago
    Existence of "point of view" does not make it subjective. You can think the moon is made of Swiss cheese, that doesn't make its composition subjective, it just makes you wrong.
    - Aeolun 3y ago
      Yeah, I’m fairly certain that does not apply to ‘Is my country doing well’, since the measures used are human defined. If you put zero value on personal freedom (which isn’t objectively better, that’s just pure opinion) the equation changes.
      - smsm42 3y ago
        Criteria like "not starving", "not being murdered", "not being raped", "not being put into concentration camp for following your own religion", "not being imprisoned for criticizing the government" is pretty objective, and I have yet to see a culture where being raped and murdered is praised and desired by people. I am sure whatever are the cultural differences in China, they like starvation, rape, murder and imprisonment as little as we do. So the country which does such things to its citizens, massively, is not "doing well", even if its citizens aren't allowed to say so aloud (and that's another sign it's not doing well - "I can't complain" can mean two things, and in China it means you'd be in prison if you do).
- helpfulContrib 3y ago
  [flagged]
stevenhuang 3y ago
Put yourself in the shoes of a political dissident. Would you rather be a citizen of China or USA?
- tehjoker 3y ago
  Yes, let's see how many of you volunteer to be the Black Lives Matter leaders that died in mysterious accidents and car fires.
  - Aeolun 3y ago
    Are you claiming that was government organized?
    - tehjoker 3y ago
      Are you claiming that the main target of the protests, police, or their allies aren't prime suspects?
- helpfulContrib 3y ago
  Julian Assange, currently being chemically lobotomized in one of the Wests' most heinously vile palaces of torture - without trial, without justice - would like you to very carefully reconsider your position with regards to political dissidents. So would Australias Witnesses J, K, L, M, N and O .. who have been disappeared into a military Star Court, for the sake of political dissidence. Be very careful with your castigation of China. We have far, far more political dissidents in our prisons than you know about. And that is by design.
  - stevenhuang 3y ago
    I'm aware and I'm not an apologist for US. What I mean to emphasize is that net net, one expects more of the semblance of a rule of law in western jurisdictions. It's why cases like Julian Assange are as controversial as they are, with public organizations in USA willing to make the case to support him and inquire on his well-being. Our media is controlled but there is semblance of free press. You don't have even that in China. If you're a dissident in China you'd be hard pressed garnering support from any org. I don't presume to have a complete picture. Maybe if I did it may suggest USA is in reality more like China. But from all that I've seen, authoritarian governments like China continue to have serious shortcomings in the kinds of freedoms we take for granted in the West.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

helpfulContrib 3y ago

[flagged]