4 ms·

> Immigration from other cultures brings its own set of problems of course and may lead to major social and economic issues in these countries. Newly arriving i

> Immigration from other cultures brings its own set of problems of course and may lead to major social and economic issues in these countries. Newly arriving immigrants frequently lack the education to be easily absorbed into a highly skilled workforce. It may take at least one generation or more to overcome this at great economic cost. As far as I know, that's false: The economic cost I'm pretty sure of: Research has shown (but I won't pretend I can cite it) that immigrants are net contributors. One (admittedly completely conjectured) explanation: Anyone motivated and healthy enough to travel to another country, where there's another language, with nothing but their shirt, is going to be very productive. Few people I know would do that. A good friend's ancestor escaped a prison camp (political prisoner), traveled across a continent, and found their way here. They did very well - they didn't find the obstacles people face in a free, wealthy country to be especially challenging! Finally, even highly skilled workforces are mostly not high-skilled. Most jobs are otherwise.

nonethewiser 3y ago
Obviously immigration does have negatives. Look at the violence in Sweden. Housing prices in Canada. And why is the mayor of New York City, a self-proclaimed sanctuary city, saying they cant handle more immigrants? Seems ridiculous to say its “false” that there are complications then offer some vague reference to research that indicates its not a problem in a particular way.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Acute, short-term issues don't prove anything. You can have too much money too. Immigration has served NYC in particular extremely well, over centuries. Probably not a good example! > Seems ridiculous to say its “false” that there are complications then offer some vague reference The claim wasn't 'complications', but economic cost. And I already admitted I don't have the research in front of me. Obviously, my claim wasn't everything is perfect all the time - a claim that applies to nothing in the world.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  You'd have to prove the violence is single handledly due to immigration. And not just come up with correlation between place with high immigration and violence rate. To jest, Monaco is 2/3 immigrants, I haven't heard many people complaining about violence.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    > You'd have to prove the violence is single handledly due to immigration Are you serious? These bombings are all done by immigrants. That's the proof.
  - runsWphotons 3y ago
    The rates in Sweden have been proven to be due to immigration---it is easy to look up and has been researched for years and years. Something like 70% of violent crime and over half of all crime come from people with migrant backgrounds. You shouldn't be allowed to just dismiss this or pretend no one has the data in a serious discussion.
    - makeitdouble 3y ago
      You're saying something that looks close enough on the surface but is fundamentally different. Crimes perpetuated by people of migrant background doesn't equate to immigration being the cause of these crimes. If we accept that rhetoric, violent crimes are overwhelmingly done by men, so being a men is the cause of violence, right ?
      - langitbiru 3y ago
        Men, especially young men, do commit violence more than women. Perhaps "being a men is the cause of violence" is not correct, but "being a man makes you much more likely to commit violence".
      - runsWphotons 3y ago
        What is your point?
- catlover76 3y ago
  > And why is the mayor of New York City, a self-proclaimed sanctuary city, saying they cant handle more immigrants? Being a sanctuary city simply means (fundamentally) not assisting the Federal government in enforcing immigration law (which, in the US, is a matter of Federal responsibility and power). The current issue NYC is facing is that the city is paying for housing and services for these migrants (who, by my understanding, are asylum seekers)--which of course they don't do for normal immigrants who decide to make a life in New York. I'm not sure if you've ever been to New York City, but it's a heavily immigrant city that simply wouldn't function without them--at all levels, from taxi drivers up to investment banks and, of course, tech.
wsc981 3y ago
> The economic cost I'm pretty sure of: Research has shown (but I won't pretend I can cite it) that immigrants are net contributors. That very much depends on immigration policies and the way a welfare state is setup. I am sure that countries with strict policies that mainly allow people to immigrate that a country can be sure these people can contribute to the economy, in such cases sure. But some countries have very lax policies and (in the name of humanitarian aid) allow many people in from poor areas of the world. At the same time some of these countries might have a large welfare state, with benefits like free or cheap healthcare, schooling, state pensions, medical benefits either free or heavily subsidized, unemployment benefits, etcetera. For those countries immigration is a huge cost. Many immigrants moving to such countries will never (be able to) work. But they will use a large amount of resources from the welfare state. And perhaps such countries hope children of these kinds of immigrants will be a net benefit, but only time will tell. Because one additional hurdle is that for many of such countries it’s not expected (and there is little push) for immigrants to integrate into society. For these countries unrestricted mass immigration will mean the dismantling of the welfare state. As there are too many users of welfare services and not enough people paying taxes to finance the welfare state. Many Northern European countries fall onto this group.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Do you have evidence? At least I read a study (that I'm not citing, admittedly).
  - jgb1984 3y ago
    "The total cost of immigration for the period 1995-2019 for the Netherlands was 400 billion euros." Quote from the conclusion of one of the studies mentioned here: https://miwi-institut.de/archives/2028#:~:text=The%20researchers%20at%20the%20University%20of%20Amsterdam%20also%20looked%20to,are%20of%20non%2DWestern%20origin https://miwi-institut.de/archives/2028#:~:text=The%20researc.... I can only speak for my own region in western Europe (Benelux / Germany / France), for us mass immigration especially from non-EU countries has a very high financial and social cost. So high that both in Belgium and the Netherlands there is a large majority to be found in favor of drastically reducing immigration, recent polls show. However in almost all west European countries you've got governments doing the exact opposite of the people's will. In my own country, Belgium, we've got a very generous social security system and as such we attract a lot of immigration that is not interested in working (and/or simply very low skilled, often illiterate). Among non-EU origins we're at 44.5 % inactivity, not studying nor working, (!!!!!) which is the worst score in all of Europe. Belgium itself is of course partially to blame because our social security system is too flexible, too generous and does not push to work. Mass immigration from strongly divergent cultures is damaging western society, causing higher poverty, more crime, and rampant feelings of alienation, tearing at the fabric of social values and cohesion. Look at Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden... Go for a stroll in Brussels or Frankfurt, have a look at the numerous ghettos there. Mass immigration is a lose-lose thing, both for the host country and for the newcomers who often sign up for a life in abject poverty.
scythe 3y ago
>One (admittedly completely conjectured) explanation: Anyone motivated and healthy enough to travel to another country, where there's another language, with nothing but their shirt, is going to be very productive. Supposing that this is true, what happens in poor countries when they selectively lose their healthiest and most productive people to emigration?
- Khartoum 3y ago
  The "Economics Explained" YouTube channel has a video called "Skills Wars Are The New Trade Wars", which touches on your question.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Brain drain is a well-known issue. Possibly productive labor drain is also?
Slava_Propanei 3y ago
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nonethewiser 3y ago

Obviously immigration does have negatives. Look at the violence in Sweden. Housing prices in Canada. And why is the mayor of New York City, a self-proclaimed sanctuary city, saying they cant handle more immigrants? Seems ridiculous to say its “false” that there are complications then offer some vague reference to research that indicates its not a problem in a particular way.

wolverine876 3y ago
Acute, short-term issues don't prove anything. You can have too much money too. Immigration has served NYC in particular extremely well, over centuries. Probably not a good example! > Seems ridiculous to say its “false” that there are complications then offer some vague reference The claim wasn't 'complications', but economic cost. And I already admitted I don't have the research in front of me. Obviously, my claim wasn't everything is perfect all the time - a claim that applies to nothing in the world.
makeitdouble 3y ago
You'd have to prove the violence is single handledly due to immigration. And not just come up with correlation between place with high immigration and violence rate. To jest, Monaco is 2/3 immigrants, I haven't heard many people complaining about violence.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > You'd have to prove the violence is single handledly due to immigration Are you serious? These bombings are all done by immigrants. That's the proof.
- runsWphotons 3y ago
  The rates in Sweden have been proven to be due to immigration---it is easy to look up and has been researched for years and years. Something like 70% of violent crime and over half of all crime come from people with migrant backgrounds. You shouldn't be allowed to just dismiss this or pretend no one has the data in a serious discussion.
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    You're saying something that looks close enough on the surface but is fundamentally different. Crimes perpetuated by people of migrant background doesn't equate to immigration being the cause of these crimes. If we accept that rhetoric, violent crimes are overwhelmingly done by men, so being a men is the cause of violence, right ?
    - langitbiru 3y ago
      Men, especially young men, do commit violence more than women. Perhaps "being a men is the cause of violence" is not correct, but "being a man makes you much more likely to commit violence".
    - runsWphotons 3y ago
      What is your point?
catlover76 3y ago
> And why is the mayor of New York City, a self-proclaimed sanctuary city, saying they cant handle more immigrants? Being a sanctuary city simply means (fundamentally) not assisting the Federal government in enforcing immigration law (which, in the US, is a matter of Federal responsibility and power). The current issue NYC is facing is that the city is paying for housing and services for these migrants (who, by my understanding, are asylum seekers)--which of course they don't do for normal immigrants who decide to make a life in New York. I'm not sure if you've ever been to New York City, but it's a heavily immigrant city that simply wouldn't function without them--at all levels, from taxi drivers up to investment banks and, of course, tech.

wsc981 3y ago

> The economic cost I'm pretty sure of: Research has shown (but I won't pretend I can cite it) that immigrants are net contributors. That very much depends on immigration policies and the way a welfare state is setup. I am sure that countries with strict policies that mainly allow people to immigrate that a country can be sure these people can contribute to the economy, in such cases sure. But some countries have very lax policies and (in the name of humanitarian aid) allow many people in from poor areas of the world. At the same time some of these countries might have a large welfare state, with benefits like free or cheap healthcare, schooling, state pensions, medical benefits either free or heavily subsidized, unemployment benefits, etcetera. For those countries immigration is a huge cost. Many immigrants moving to such countries will never (be able to) work. But they will use a large amount of resources from the welfare state. And perhaps such countries hope children of these kinds of immigrants will be a net benefit, but only time will tell. Because one additional hurdle is that for many of such countries it’s not expected (and there is little push) for immigrants to integrate into society. For these countries unrestricted mass immigration will mean the dismantling of the welfare state. As there are too many users of welfare services and not enough people paying taxes to finance the welfare state. Many Northern European countries fall onto this group.

wolverine876 3y ago
Do you have evidence? At least I read a study (that I'm not citing, admittedly).
- jgb1984 3y ago
  "The total cost of immigration for the period 1995-2019 for the Netherlands was 400 billion euros." Quote from the conclusion of one of the studies mentioned here: https://miwi-institut.de/archives/2028#:~:text=The%20researchers%20at%20the%20University%20of%20Amsterdam%20also%20looked%20to,are%20of%20non%2DWestern%20origin https://miwi-institut.de/archives/2028#:~:text=The%20researc.... I can only speak for my own region in western Europe (Benelux / Germany / France), for us mass immigration especially from non-EU countries has a very high financial and social cost. So high that both in Belgium and the Netherlands there is a large majority to be found in favor of drastically reducing immigration, recent polls show. However in almost all west European countries you've got governments doing the exact opposite of the people's will. In my own country, Belgium, we've got a very generous social security system and as such we attract a lot of immigration that is not interested in working (and/or simply very low skilled, often illiterate). Among non-EU origins we're at 44.5 % inactivity, not studying nor working, (!!!!!) which is the worst score in all of Europe. Belgium itself is of course partially to blame because our social security system is too flexible, too generous and does not push to work. Mass immigration from strongly divergent cultures is damaging western society, causing higher poverty, more crime, and rampant feelings of alienation, tearing at the fabric of social values and cohesion. Look at Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden... Go for a stroll in Brussels or Frankfurt, have a look at the numerous ghettos there. Mass immigration is a lose-lose thing, both for the host country and for the newcomers who often sign up for a life in abject poverty.

scythe 3y ago

>One (admittedly completely conjectured) explanation: Anyone motivated and healthy enough to travel to another country, where there's another language, with nothing but their shirt, is going to be very productive. Supposing that this is true, what happens in poor countries when they selectively lose their healthiest and most productive people to emigration?

Khartoum 3y ago
The "Economics Explained" YouTube channel has a video called "Skills Wars Are The New Trade Wars", which touches on your question.
wolverine876 3y ago
Brain drain is a well-known issue. Possibly productive labor drain is also?

Slava_Propanei 3y ago

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