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A few things > If we could wave a magic wand and completely stop our CO2 emissions it wouldn't move the needle on global warming at all. Some people completel

A few things > If we could wave a magic wand and completely stop our CO2 emissions it wouldn't move the needle on global warming at all. Some people completely ignore the fact that it does help, it may not help the ozone above China, but having a country that is not pumping out ash and other byproducts into the air does make it citizens healthier. They live longer, they have less health issues, they pay more taxes (potentially longer job life span), and they are happier. So regardless of the short sighted "we are too small to do anything" statement. It does help. > Notwithstanding these facts, the government went all in on renewables and cutting down on emissions -- despite it not making any sense -- because it's a popular measure across all age groups. Another interesting statement, should it not make sense for a government to do what it's citizens want? > Energy companies had to invest in still unproven renewable tech which was very costly. Solar is fairly new, but wind is certainly not new in any fashion, along with water it is one of the oldest forms of energy generation that exist. If anything coal/nuclear are newer than wind. And tidal assuming a stable tidal pattern is also an easy engineering issue to solve. I am not sure beyond solar you can argue "unproven renewable tech". > Had we chosen to start investing in renewables more recently, like Brazil, we would be buying better and cheaper tech. You can't really say that, if that's an argument then nobody would ever buy anything, because it could always be better and cheaper later. I get the reasoning for your statement, because investing in natural gas or other oil methods like that can provide more faster for the general populace. But there is no reason that renewable cannot ALSO do that, it's just nobody has an example of such case. And there are plenty of examples with gas.

sofixa 3y ago
> Another interesting statement, should it not make sense for a government to do what it's citizens want? Nope, not always, and this is why direct democracy is pretty inefficient. People aren't experts, are often shortsighted and thinking at the micro level: many government policies and choices need long term thinking and expertise at the macro level. Take a look at Switzerland - "green" measures such as a carbon tax, which is considered by many experts as one of the best policies to reduce CO2 emissions, was refused by voters, because they're thinking about the impact it will have on them personally, now, and not about all the negative things which will be reduced with such a tax.
- fwungy 3y ago
  It would cost them a lot of money and have no impact on CO2 levels. Chinese and Indians will not magnanimously sacrifice their money to lower their CO2, and if they don't then it doesn't matter.
  - dubcanada 3y ago
    With that attitude, nobody is going to do anything.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    The rest of the world can encourage China and India with economic sanctions if they won’t come along for the renewables and EV ride. With that said, China at least is an example of moving to EVs and renewables rapidly.
    - fwungy 3y ago
      China is the world's manufacturing powerhouse. It's very difficult to get the economic leverage to sanction China, and convincing developing nations to go along would be virtually impossible.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        > China is the world's manufacturing powerhouse. It's very difficult to get the economic leverage to sanction China, and convincing developing nations to go along would be virtually impossible. You don't buy from them. This is already happening [1] [2] [3]. Developing nations have no purchasing power compared to the developed world. They'll kowtow to developed world hegemony if push comes to shove (at least within the scope of US foreign aid [~$40B/year] and dollar dominance). [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=manufacturing+moving+away+from+china https://www.google.com/search?q=manufacturing+moving+away+fr... [2] https://www.freightwaves.com/news/manufacturers-move-away-from-china-in-light-of-supply-issues-cost-increases https://www.freightwaves.com/news/manufacturers-move-away-fr... [3] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/20/china-factory-of-the-world-is-losing-its-manufacturing-dominance.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/20/china-factory-of-the-world-i...
flamedoge 3y ago
>> Notwithstanding these facts, the government went all in on renewables and cutting down on emissions -- despite it not making any sense -- because it's a popular measure across all age groups. > Another interesting statement, should it not make sense for a government to do what it's citizens want? "and now we have one the highest energy prices in all of Europe." 'want' is an evolving metric. I'm sure they want low energy prices now.

sofixa 3y ago

> Another interesting statement, should it not make sense for a government to do what it's citizens want? Nope, not always, and this is why direct democracy is pretty inefficient. People aren't experts, are often shortsighted and thinking at the micro level: many government policies and choices need long term thinking and expertise at the macro level. Take a look at Switzerland - "green" measures such as a carbon tax, which is considered by many experts as one of the best policies to reduce CO2 emissions, was refused by voters, because they're thinking about the impact it will have on them personally, now, and not about all the negative things which will be reduced with such a tax.

fwungy 3y ago
It would cost them a lot of money and have no impact on CO2 levels. Chinese and Indians will not magnanimously sacrifice their money to lower their CO2, and if they don't then it doesn't matter.
- dubcanada 3y ago
  With that attitude, nobody is going to do anything.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  The rest of the world can encourage China and India with economic sanctions if they won’t come along for the renewables and EV ride. With that said, China at least is an example of moving to EVs and renewables rapidly.
  - fwungy 3y ago
    China is the world's manufacturing powerhouse. It's very difficult to get the economic leverage to sanction China, and convincing developing nations to go along would be virtually impossible.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      > China is the world's manufacturing powerhouse. It's very difficult to get the economic leverage to sanction China, and convincing developing nations to go along would be virtually impossible. You don't buy from them. This is already happening [1] [2] [3]. Developing nations have no purchasing power compared to the developed world. They'll kowtow to developed world hegemony if push comes to shove (at least within the scope of US foreign aid [~$40B/year] and dollar dominance). [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=manufacturing+moving+away+from+china https://www.google.com/search?q=manufacturing+moving+away+fr... [2] https://www.freightwaves.com/news/manufacturers-move-away-from-china-in-light-of-supply-issues-cost-increases https://www.freightwaves.com/news/manufacturers-move-away-fr... [3] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/20/china-factory-of-the-world-is-losing-its-manufacturing-dominance.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/20/china-factory-of-the-world-i...

flamedoge 3y ago

>> Notwithstanding these facts, the government went all in on renewables and cutting down on emissions -- despite it not making any sense -- because it's a popular measure across all age groups. > Another interesting statement, should it not make sense for a government to do what it's citizens want? "and now we have one the highest energy prices in all of Europe." 'want' is an evolving metric. I'm sure they want low energy prices now.