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Very high number of workplace accidents at Tesla factory in Germany
- hindsightbias 3y ago> Another employee broke into a dosing oven with red-hot aluminum with his foot. Now we need a workplace safety video about not dancing on ovens.
- diogenes4 3y agoYes of course it must be the worker's fault, how convenient for tesla
- ReptileMan 3y agoA human foot has no place walking above melted aluminum. Since I don't think that anyone was reckless enough to design such a route, let alone this design pass multiple sign offs, chances that someone found and used some shortcut are not small.
- sixothree 3y agoYou're making a lot of assumptions there.
- giraffe_lady 3y agoHm what sorts of incentives and constraints could lead to a worker taking dangerous shortcuts. I wonder if this has ever been an issue before I wonder if anyone has looked into how these things happen.
- ReptileMan 3y agoPeople are good with chances up until let's say 1/100, anything lower is filed into - it will never happen in their minds. this is usually called normalization of deviance. To make things even worse - if you see someone doing something dangerous and that person knows what he is doing - you may decide to imitate without having the experience or knowledge to see the hidden safety measures that are being taken or the force majeure circumstances that made him do it. Now let's assume that you have to walk a lot into the gigafactories - not at all a small buildings. You are not employee trained or authorized to be near the hot metal, but taking some obscure path saves you 300 meters. You take it, nothing bad happens. It becomes part of your routine - until one day you slip. Not saying that this happened - just an example how people could easily put themselves into danger without realizing the magnitude of it. And throw in the mix that Tesla themselves are not paragons of do things safe, but do it fast as a corporate culture - and it trickles down to the employees.
- diogenes4 3y ago> I don't think that anyone was reckless enough to design such a route Why on earth would you assume that? Regardless, any safety protocol that relies solely on people not doing dumb shit is a failed safety protocol.
- badtension 3y agoWe are easily manipulated into thinking how stupid people must be but in reality it is often a bad process, tiredness, mismanagement or cost cutting that are responsible for it. I encourage you to read about the "Hot McDonald's coffee" case which has unfortunately been a meme for a long time: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/16/13971482/mcdonalds-coffee-lawsuit-stella-liebeck https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/16/13971482/...
- sixothree 3y agoIf you weren't around at the time, it's hard to describe just how absolutely pervasive the ridicule of this woman was. It was a daily thing for quite a long time. Looking back at it makes me sick.
- Clubber 3y agoThe funny thing is she was just asking for McD's to pay her medical bills and they refused. I believe most of the ridicule was funded by them too. Enjoy your fries.
- mcpackieh 3y agoBad article. From your link " And McDonald’s began changing how it heats up its coffee." This is contradicted by wikipedia, which says McDonalds continues to heat their coffee that hot, and that Starbucks and other coffee shops do as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restaurants#Coffee_temperature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald%27s_Restau... > Since Liebeck, McDonald's has not reduced the service temperature of its coffee. McDonald's current policy is to serve coffee at 176–194 °F (80–90 °C),[40] relying on more sternly worded warnings on cups made of rigid foam to avoid future liability, though it continues to face lawsuits over hot coffee.[40][41] The Specialty Coffee Association of America supports improved packaging methods rather than lowering the temperature at which coffee is served. The association has successfully aided the defense of subsequent coffee burn cases.[41] Similarly, as of 2004, Starbucks sells coffee at 175–185 °F (79–85 °C), and the executive director of the Specialty Coffee Association of America reported that the standard serving temperature is 160–185 °F (71–85 °C).[citation needed] This case seems to have myths inside myths. The first order myth is that the lawsuit was bogus. But there's a second order myth, that the temperature of the coffee was unusually hot and they've since changed this. What is true is that the coffee was hot enough to cause severe third degree burns, requiring skin grafts, and that McDonald's coffee cups at that time were prone to spontaneous collapse. But the coffee was not unusually hot; coffee hot enough to cause those kind of burns is the norm. In fact even coffee substantially cooler than that can cause third degree burns, particularly with children and the elderly. Look up scald charts, 140 F / 60 C can cause third degree burns with only 5 seconds of exposure.
- krisoft 3y ago> Now we need a workplace safety video about not dancing on ovens. Hard to judge this without knowing the circumstances. Were they fooling around, or did they had to walk on or around the oven? What is even a "dosing oven"?
- denimnerd42 3y agoit's for diecasting. just gooogle dosing furnace diecasting "Dosing furnaces are closed holding furnaces with a spout for direct metal delivery. They are used to dispense an accurate amount of molten metal into the die casting machine. The advantage of dosing furnaces is that because it is closed, it minimizes heat loss and protects the molten metal from excessive oxidation."
- d1sxeyes 3y agoGood question. A dosing oven is normally an oven which doses out a particular amount of product to be baked (such as for example bread etc). It could be something automotive (paint/plastic curing, etc.) or it’s not completely beyond the realms of possibility that this is a conventional bread dough dosing oven (see VW part 199 398 500 A), but seems unlikely.
- londons_explore 3y agoYou wouldn't walk on a dosing oven in the usual course of events. However, it is totally possible that someone was up there doing maintenance or debugging (let me drop a temperature probe in there to test if the ovens built in temperature measurement is accurate!)
- ReptileMan 3y ago>Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning I think that we live in some strange situation where we have some glaring safety issues exist just because people are taught that safety is someone else's job that they care for seriously. Usually that is not the case. So you have accumulation of willful stupidity and normalization on deviance on the floor that eventually hurts someone.
- crdrost 3y agoThat's not an inevitable property of the universe, that's a culture. I did tech at a mechanical/electrical/plumbing contractor called US Engineering in KC. The union (unions?) and Corporate worked pretty well together, because they had to. Aggressive subcontractor bidding means you only get a few percentage points of profit on each job, the unions fight to get their fair share knowing that if they fight too hard they make the company brittle and they don't want the company to fold, indeed it was kind of shocking to hear people taking some pride (even in jest) at making the CEO and his family some cash. But the biggest thing was, Believe In Zero. Huge push, lots of concerns that all of the new hires in new regions working on data centers did not understand this long-held cultural expectation. It's to believe in zero “unsafe behaviors,” things like turning with one foot when you get off a ladder (instead of planting both feet on the ground and then turning). Even if “Believe In Zero” was the corporate side, the unions were committed to “yeah that's what we do” and typical welders would remind me that they are working with thousand pound plumbing assemblies, cutters that need to slice these massive pipes open, and of course day-in-day-out they are going to be staring at the plasma of a welding torch melting this stuff back together—“all any of us want to do is to have some pride in our work, get a fair paycheck, and get home safe and healthy,” they'd say. Why would Corporate care, why would the unions push so hard for how you step off of a ladder? Because if you roll your ankle or yank the ladder towards you, could create an injury, that requires paperwork for OSHA, then the insurance company will look at that paperwork to try and argue that they should get more money because you are not a five star super-safe workplace, even if they are not paying that much for the actual incidents. And when your margin is only a couple of percentage points, you can't be spending half of it on insurance. So they did. Heck even I got into it. One thing I did to “Believe In Zero” was to cover up all of the exposed nails or splintery plywood in the corner where we stored soda. Sure “no reasonable person is going to run their hand across these surfaces”, but hey, you never know, maybe someone spills a coffee and someone else slips on it, if it's just 10 minutes for me to fix it now, and I can be thinking about how I want to structure a module while I am doing it, why leave it?
- londons_explore 3y agoMany ovens are made of a special high temperature ceramic fire-brick. It's great at resisting heat, and is a decent insulator, but isn't very strong. If you build an oven roof out of it, I could completely imagining some uninformed employee standing on the roof and having a foot fall through. The fix is to redesign the oven to have a stronger roof, or to paint "NO STEP, NO STEP" all over the roof of the oven.
- whalesalad 3y agoGonna go out on a limb here and posit that the same number of incidents are happening at all Tesla facilities, it's just that Germany is more safety conscious and aware to the numbers. The operating climate has gotta be way different in Texas and China.
- deaddodo 3y agoIf you think California has inordinately lower safety standards to Germany, I've got a bridge to sell you. That being said; yes, this has been an operating modal for Tesla from the beginning. California had to sanction and fine the company multiple times before they started operating lawfully and reasonably.
- namdnay 3y agoin the workplace? definitely
- deaddodo 3y agoWell, you're wrong. No matter how you'd like to downvote me.
- sceaux 3y agoCould you maybe provide an actual argument? I am german and legitimately not sure. Maybe share the Californian perspective?
- namdnay 3y agowhat contracts are the california workers on? someone who can be fired at any moment is not going to report a minor injury..
- deaddodo 3y agoNo, but they will certainly sue Tesla for copious sums of money via civil suits and worker's comp; if the company is operating unlawfully and at cause for their injury. The perpetual "at will is abusive by design" argument doesn't apply to a) Good Faith covenant states and b) places where the reward for abuse far outweighs a continued employment.
- marricks 3y ago> all work accidents must be reported What do you want to bet injuries are high elsewhere and Germany just has better reporting. > Tesla boss Elon Musk’s factory requested an ambulance or helicopter 247 times in the first year after opening alone Later goes on to say this is three times as many per capita as Audi. Tesla: quality is crap, our factory workers are paid poorly and injured, our corporate workers can spy on you while you drive, our boss is insane, but hey our lineup spells SEXY which is hilarious
- Implicated 3y agoAt least this way you save money on digits. Those "X days since last workplace injury" signs never even make it to double digit days.
- tasubotadas 3y ago> Tesla boss Elon Musk’s factory What a strange approach to go out of your way to ensure that Musk's name is mentioned.
- willis936 3y agoSafety is the responsibility of leadership. >“That’s our other rule,” Musk continues. “Safety third. There’s not even a Rule Number Two. But even though there’s nothing in second place, safety is not getting promoted to number two.” https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/elon-musk-the-architect-of-tomorrow-120850/ https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/elon-m...
- justrealist 3y agoIncredibly dishonest to take a quote about his advice to his children/family in this context. It's completely fair in that context. If you drill into your children "safety is the number 1 rule at all times", they are going to be socially and developmentally stunted.
- willis936 3y ago
- freejazz 3y agoWho could be surprised?
- sceaux 3y ago[flagged]
- scblock 3y agoThis is how it is supposed to work in the United States as well. Any injury at all reported, then categorized by severity. First aid, lost lost time, etc.
- Veliladon 3y ago>Converted to the number of employees, this is three times as many emergencies – in a similar period of time – as occurred, for example, at the Audi factory in Ingolstadt. Per capita the record is fucking awful. Move fast and break things doesn't really work for manufacturing where the things one breaks is employees. At least in civilized countries with functional employment protection laws.
- marricks 3y ago> requested an ambulance or helicopter 247 times in the first year after opening alone Kinda doubt it
- sophacles 3y agoDo you have any actual data suggest your doubt is founded?
- marricks 3y agoThe original reply stated “reported injuries could be bruised thumbs” This supports the idea that not just reported injuries were high but so were injuries which required ambulance calls. If you have data to suggest those were all for bruised thumbs you should add that yourself.
- sophacles 3y agoMy mistake, I misread your doubtful reply up a level such that you were doubting the safety office's report, not quoting it to the "bruised thumbs" reply. Cheers.
- bell-cot 3y agoReaction: The world is not software, and there are very few industries where "move fast and break things" is a good peacetime strategy.
- jamiequint 3y agoTesla accelerated the mass adoption of electric cars by at least a decade. Tesla’s workplace safety stats and their rate of progress are inextricably linked. If a 3x injury rate vs similar companies is cost of such progress, definitely worth it.
- dontlaugh 3y agoAccelerating the adoption of electric cars is not necessarily a good thing, for the planet or its people.
- Mrdarknezz 3y agoThat might cause some unintended friction which will cause over regulation and ultimately cause longer delays in the long term.
- codingcodingboy 3y agoOk let's ruin people lives for profit. Go take a look at an emergency room when somebody gets injured.
- jamiequint 3y agoHow many people's lives do you think would have been ruined by delaying the electrification of something that accounts for ~25% of worldwide greenhouse gas emissions by a decade or more?
- hef19898 3y agoSure, let other people suffer for my moral ideals and profits. Hell, we really didn't learn a single bit from the industrial revolution, did we? I guess Musk could walk down Holiwood Boulevard and kill someone without loosing a single fan at this point...
- 1-6 3y agoGlobalecho.com has too many distracting ads. How reputable is this site?
- snowpid 3y agoGerman source: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/regional/brandenburg/rbb-bundesarbeitsminister-zeigt-sich-besorgt-ueber-schwere-arbeitsunfaelle-bei-tesla-102.html https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/regional/brandenburg/rbb-bu...
- redder23 3y ago[flagged]
- hef19898 3y agoI coupd register on Twitter, buy some followers and posts, and then post those same accident numbers without citing any sources, if that would be more to your liking.
- HerrBertling 3y agoThe tagesschau.de article cites a paywalled article by the privately owned magazine "Stern" as source of all of this. Just saying. Edit: Also, the main source of the reporting is the actual Amt (state office) that keeps track of workspace safety. Not that much wiggle room for truth/lies if you ask me…
- redder23 3y agoI was never disputing any of the validity or where the actual source info. But yeah I guess posting the Stern source would be a little better if they just quoted from them. My point was just because I find it ridiculous to post "Tagesschau" as a response to a ask for a"reputable" new site. And the idea that "many distracting ads" make a new site not reputable is equally ridiculous. Its 2023 this is a heavy tech related site, and this moron this does not know what a adblocker is. Yeah go ahead, downvote me flag me, I do not give a fuck, you are as braindead as the people on Reddit or Twitter.
- mauryashivam 3y agoThe bureaucratic mess in Germany is in part related to making everything safe and less interfaring in everyday life. This sort of accidents must occur across the globe but it is difficult to cover in Germany (and western Europe).
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- londontoast 3y ago[flagged]
- TekMol 3y agoElon Musk’s factory requested an ambulance or helicopter 247 times in the first year after opening alone Isn't that an insanely high number? If there are 10k people working there, that means that as a Tesla employee, every year, you have a 2% chance to end up in an ambulance?
- ChumpGPT 3y agoI don't even want to know wtf is going on in China. Tesla has probably killed 100's there and half the plant will die of cancer in the coming years.
- londons_explore 3y ago> after a fire [...] 300 liters of extinguishing water seeped into the ground isn't this normal practice? I don't think I've ever seen a fire crew take back the fire extinguishing water they use...
- hef19898 3y agoIndustrial buildings are supposed to have drainage systems for this.
- insiderGoogle 3y ago[dead]
- formerly_proven 3y agoThis got buried impressively quickly from #1 to #80 in <5 minutes and less than half an hour to rank #160+ https://hnrankings.info/37689959/ https://hnrankings.info/37689959/
- frob 3y agoIt's been very obvious for years now on hacker news that anything critical of Musk, especially something showing how his companies abuse workers, gets immediately buried if it gets close to the top. I'm not sure if it's a group of power users flagging these articles or if someone with more administrative control does it, but there is no question that someone or multiple people work to suppress anything that shines a negative light on Musk.
- bell-cot 3y agoPolite & reasonable idea: HN is flying no "Eternal Champion of Truth and Justice" banners on its masthead. Nor is it turning a tidy profit from all the advertising and annual membership fees here. Nor is it under any legal obligation to favor/disfavor people or ideas which many of the users here might like/dislike. Mr. Musk is very wealthy, and has an irrationally nasty side. Our Fair Leader Paul Graham may not care to be our "Pay any Legal Bill, Bear any Anger" meat shield when topics come up that could draw unwelcome attention in his direction.
- mcpackieh 3y agoI don't see any reason to believe that Tesla stories are specifically targeted for suppression by the HN software or mods/admin. The topic is highly polarized, lots of people always get downvoted and flagged in these discussions and this triggers automatic systems for flamewar suppression. Compare the rank trajectory of this discussion to other equally polarized and contentious discussions and you'll see that nothing special is going on here.
- frob 3y ago[flagged]
- hef19898 3y agoNo need to assume, people flagging the submission explains it. And seeing how the discussion goes, I can understand people flagging it.
- marricks 3y agoIt's by design, HN pushes down highly commented discussions. Which makes sense if people don't want to read flamebate, but with a company like Telsa with both a sea of issues and fan boys, it gives them a pass.