5 ms·

Uhhh, excuse me, what? What on earth are you spending your money on? 200k/year goes quite far pretty much anywhere in the US. Yes, areas like SF or Seattle are

Uhhh, excuse me, what? What on earth are you spending your money on? 200k/year goes quite far pretty much anywhere in the US. Yes, areas like SF or Seattle are so expensive that children are a luxury item and no house sells below 1M/year. But in nearly every other part of the country that's simply not true.

eek2121 3y ago
He is saying what many of us are thinking. $100,000-$200,000 are now middle class, not upper middle, thanks to inflation. For a family with kids you are looking at rent in excess of $3,000/mo or houses over $400,000. We make a quarter million a year, and while we definitely don’t have trouble getting by, we also aren’t maxing out our 401k. Childcare alone takes up a substantial chunk of our income.
- light_hue_1 3y ago
  Exactly. This was not our situation even 3 years ago. 3 years ago we felt financially very secure, like the future was rosy, we could save money, and look forward to children. Even now, like you, we don't have trouble getting by, but, we aren't maxing anything out. We watch what we're spending and we feel like we're just about sliding by with how crazy childcare is. Things aren't going well at all.
  - astrange 3y ago
    I think you should look at how much over the median household income you are and then go find out what those people are doing.
    - mberning 3y ago
      The evidence would suggest that people making a median income are up to their eyeballs in debt, particularly credit card debt, and have very little hope of their situation improving in the future.
      - astrange 3y ago
        I don't believe it does show that in 2023. Do you have a source that's better than a Bankrate survey? (FRED charts are the most reliable.) Things like this are "okay": https://www.stlouisfed.org/institute-for-economic-equity/the-state-of-us-wealth-inequality https://www.stlouisfed.org/institute-for-economic-equity/the... And of course, the poorest people in the country are non-workers (the elderly and children) who are probably not in debt, but have other problems. Should bring back the CTC and fix child poverty again.
- 88913527 3y ago
  And the definition of middle class is looking more like "owning a condo" than owning a single-family home in a high cost of living area, the type of area where it's easier to get a $200k income.
- mberning 3y ago
  Exactly. This is not controversial or very hard to understand. By the time you pay the taxes on your income, health insurance, maybe fund your 401k, pay an average mortgage, pay for insurance, power, other utilities, etc. I won't even touch the subject of cars, vacations, or other frivilous expenses. If you have relatively average expenses there really is not a lot of meat left on the bone. I am sympathetic to these most likely younger or early career people that think it is a "lot of money" but when you move out of your apartment and have a family to support 200k is a decent middle class living. Which is a little bit depressing after you have been on the grind for 15-20 years in a demanding career.
  - tzs 3y ago
    $200k is around 88th percentile household income in the US. I'm finding it hard to believe one needs to be 88th percentile to have a decent middle class lifestyle. Even in California it is above 80th percentile.
- hotnfresh 3y ago
  This is a better way to phrase it. $200k in the Midwest means a pretty good house in the best area public school district, two cars, some decent but not extravagant vacations, and you might be able to retire comfortably by your mid-sixties assuming nobody gets too sick in the meantime. It doesn’t mean living in the nicest parts of the city, which have bad schools because everyone in the nice houses there sends their kids to a good private school, and the public schools are attended only by kids from the slums. It doesn’t mean a lake house (maybe a small lake fishing cabin, on a kinda-bad lake, but not a lake house. Maybe a tacky pontoon boat and a slip rental). It doesn’t mean annual long ski vacations and summering. It’s not upper middle class, in other words.
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    Accurate except you can easily shave 10 years off retirement.
    - hotnfresh 3y ago
      Earning that much from like your mid-20s, yeah, probably. [edit] or, hitting that level more like in your mid-30s but not having kids, yes.
- phillipcarter 3y ago
  I read this as more a reflection on the reality that children require dual incomes, not that software jobs all of a sudden got less valuable. Children have been luxury items - to some extent, depending on region - for a long time in the US. The only people I knew growing up who weren't dual income had rich families that actually fronted the bill for children. Single family homes have been unattainable for most since at least 2008. And so on.
  - tempsy 3y ago
    if you don’t own a house yet and now staring at a mortgage at 7.5% instead of 2.5% you’re going to spend thousands more a month in interest as part of your mortgage payment, not accounting for home price appreciation since the low rates of 2021. so it doesn’t matter if you make $200k-$300k a year in a high paid profession a mortgage these days will require a much higher % of your take home pay than someone who bought the same house at 2.5%
    - phillipcarter 3y ago
      Yes, as was the case throughout most of US history. Housing has never been, and likely never will be, a financial guarantee aside for the rich. I certainly hope people didn't get into software thinking it was a magical get-rich-quick scheme, because it's never been that. It certainly is a high-paying profession that allows you to live a comfortable life with amenities.
      - tempsy 3y ago
        you won’t be able to comfortably afford a $1M house, which would be well below average in a coastal area where SWE jobs are mostly located, at today’s rates if you make $200k. Would be tight even on $300k.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    Childcare is so expensive that a single taxable income and someone staying home watching the kids of quite viable.

eek2121 3y ago

He is saying what many of us are thinking. $100,000-$200,000 are now middle class, not upper middle, thanks to inflation. For a family with kids you are looking at rent in excess of $3,000/mo or houses over $400,000. We make a quarter million a year, and while we definitely don’t have trouble getting by, we also aren’t maxing out our 401k. Childcare alone takes up a substantial chunk of our income.

light_hue_1 3y ago
Exactly. This was not our situation even 3 years ago. 3 years ago we felt financially very secure, like the future was rosy, we could save money, and look forward to children. Even now, like you, we don't have trouble getting by, but, we aren't maxing anything out. We watch what we're spending and we feel like we're just about sliding by with how crazy childcare is. Things aren't going well at all.
- astrange 3y ago
  I think you should look at how much over the median household income you are and then go find out what those people are doing.
  - mberning 3y ago
    The evidence would suggest that people making a median income are up to their eyeballs in debt, particularly credit card debt, and have very little hope of their situation improving in the future.
    - astrange 3y ago
      I don't believe it does show that in 2023. Do you have a source that's better than a Bankrate survey? (FRED charts are the most reliable.) Things like this are "okay": https://www.stlouisfed.org/institute-for-economic-equity/the-state-of-us-wealth-inequality https://www.stlouisfed.org/institute-for-economic-equity/the... And of course, the poorest people in the country are non-workers (the elderly and children) who are probably not in debt, but have other problems. Should bring back the CTC and fix child poverty again.
88913527 3y ago
And the definition of middle class is looking more like "owning a condo" than owning a single-family home in a high cost of living area, the type of area where it's easier to get a $200k income.
mberning 3y ago
Exactly. This is not controversial or very hard to understand. By the time you pay the taxes on your income, health insurance, maybe fund your 401k, pay an average mortgage, pay for insurance, power, other utilities, etc. I won't even touch the subject of cars, vacations, or other frivilous expenses. If you have relatively average expenses there really is not a lot of meat left on the bone. I am sympathetic to these most likely younger or early career people that think it is a "lot of money" but when you move out of your apartment and have a family to support 200k is a decent middle class living. Which is a little bit depressing after you have been on the grind for 15-20 years in a demanding career.
- tzs 3y ago
  $200k is around 88th percentile household income in the US. I'm finding it hard to believe one needs to be 88th percentile to have a decent middle class lifestyle. Even in California it is above 80th percentile.
hotnfresh 3y ago
This is a better way to phrase it. $200k in the Midwest means a pretty good house in the best area public school district, two cars, some decent but not extravagant vacations, and you might be able to retire comfortably by your mid-sixties assuming nobody gets too sick in the meantime. It doesn’t mean living in the nicest parts of the city, which have bad schools because everyone in the nice houses there sends their kids to a good private school, and the public schools are attended only by kids from the slums. It doesn’t mean a lake house (maybe a small lake fishing cabin, on a kinda-bad lake, but not a lake house. Maybe a tacky pontoon boat and a slip rental). It doesn’t mean annual long ski vacations and summering. It’s not upper middle class, in other words.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  Accurate except you can easily shave 10 years off retirement.
  - hotnfresh 3y ago
    Earning that much from like your mid-20s, yeah, probably. [edit] or, hitting that level more like in your mid-30s but not having kids, yes.
phillipcarter 3y ago
I read this as more a reflection on the reality that children require dual incomes, not that software jobs all of a sudden got less valuable. Children have been luxury items - to some extent, depending on region - for a long time in the US. The only people I knew growing up who weren't dual income had rich families that actually fronted the bill for children. Single family homes have been unattainable for most since at least 2008. And so on.
- tempsy 3y ago
  if you don’t own a house yet and now staring at a mortgage at 7.5% instead of 2.5% you’re going to spend thousands more a month in interest as part of your mortgage payment, not accounting for home price appreciation since the low rates of 2021. so it doesn’t matter if you make $200k-$300k a year in a high paid profession a mortgage these days will require a much higher % of your take home pay than someone who bought the same house at 2.5%
  - phillipcarter 3y ago
    Yes, as was the case throughout most of US history. Housing has never been, and likely never will be, a financial guarantee aside for the rich. I certainly hope people didn't get into software thinking it was a magical get-rich-quick scheme, because it's never been that. It certainly is a high-paying profession that allows you to live a comfortable life with amenities.
    - tempsy 3y ago
      you won’t be able to comfortably afford a $1M house, which would be well below average in a coastal area where SWE jobs are mostly located, at today’s rates if you make $200k. Would be tight even on $300k.
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Childcare is so expensive that a single taxable income and someone staying home watching the kids of quite viable.