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It's important to note that the Drive Pilot is currently limited pretty heavily in the conditions it will operate in (<40MPH, has a vehicle in front to follow,

by rtkwe 3y ago

It's important to note that the Drive Pilot is currently limited pretty heavily in the conditions it will operate in (<40MPH, has a vehicle in front to follow, restricted to premapped routes, dry and clear roads with clear detectable lane markers) it's still a big step to go up to level 3 and Mercedes is assuming legal liability. I think Musk's insistence on a camera only system will ultimately be a huge anchor around Tesla's neck for self driving.

nocoiner 3y ago
If, as another commenter said, this is only for use on freeways, I’m not sure how than is any different from the system in my 2021 BMW. Is MB’s assumption of liability the only thing pushing it up to L3? Otherwise the capabilities sound identical.
- rtkwe 3y ago
  Liability and legally endorsing a complete hands off driving interaction are the big differences. Cars have kind of been able to do this for a while but you're supposed to keep complete control of the vehicle with hands on the wheel (usually actively monitored with nags if it things you've taken your hands off). While your BMW's adaptive cruise control (or whatever BMW named their similar system) plus lane keep could basically do this it's legally just a driver assist where the Drive Pilot is taking the big step of being in legal control of the car.
  - saberience 3y ago
    I don’t care about the legal liability I care about the actual features and capability of the system. If this thing can’t go faster than 50kph then it’s not better than my Honda civic from 2020, literally. I hate how this has gotten advertised as way better than a Tesla but actually it’s much much worse than a Tesla in terms of its actual ability to drive in all conditions.
    - rtkwe 3y ago
      It's more of a technical step forward than a feature step forward true but that's pretty significant still, IMO the gap between "driver assist" and full self driving is full of things like this. Adaptive cruise control + lane keeping + automatic lane change is, from a driver perspective, feature wise 80% of the way to highway self driving but they're all limited by the requirements that they're not hands-off features. That last gap of fully letting the user remove their hands from the wheel, explicitly, and assuming liability is putting a lot more trust in the system than your 2020 Civic. If they were as cavalier about driver safety and liability as Tesla they probably could have looser restrictions on it and just push the job of being a perfectly alert safety driver onto their customers..
  - nocoiner 3y ago
    The BMW system is fully hands-free on freeways, under 40 mph, legible road markings, etc. It does indeed monitor the driver’s attention to the road and will deactivate if you aren’t looking for a while, but even with the assumption of liability, I suspect I’d use the MB system the exact same way I’d use my current system (i.e., with my eyes on the road!).
    - BoorishBears 3y ago
      Drive Pilot enables taking your eyes off the road, choosing to keep your eyes on the road doesn't undo that capability. They also guarantee 10 seconds between disengaging and requiring your control: meaning they're assuming liability during disengagements. They handle emergency vehicles, using external microphones to yield right of way for lights and sirens autonomously. _ Overall assuming liability took solving a lot of problems that laypeople keep assuming are trivial because L3 looks so similar to L2. I work in the AV industry and Drive Pilot leapfrogged a lot of offerings. BMW is just now working through European certification for the 7 series, so their original estimate of 2025 doesn't seem far off for US markets. Tesla apparently doesn't even want to try at this and is content with stretching the L2 rubber band as far as it can while pushing flashy demos
      - nocoiner 3y ago
        Thank you, I appreciate the information and additional context. I hope my comments didn’t sound like I was naysaying MB - I’m glad people are putting hard work into a hard problem. I just didn’t see at first how it was different from current systems I’m familiar with. Now I do!
- orwin 3y ago
  The commenter you're refering to is wrong and refer to a inaccurate/lying secondary source. Here is the primary source: https://unece.org/sites/default/files/2022-05/ECE-TRANS-WP.29-2022-59r1e.pdf https://unece.org/sites/default/files/2022-05/ECE-TRANS-WP.2... It's the second time in that much week that Ars Technica blatantly lie about what's in the primary source, maybe trusting nobody would check. I'll wait until my subscription finish, but i won't be retaking one next year.
spikels 3y ago
…also can’t be a construction zone. Since all the premapped routes are highways with speeds well above 40 mph and given that a “follow car” must be directly ahead of it, this is just for highway traffic jams under ideal conditions. Useful but very limited. Disagree that camera only will prove to be a mistake. Vision is how every car is operated and avoiding additional sensors simplifies development, reduces cost improving scalability.
- rtkwe 3y ago
  Operated by humans that way. We come conveniently preconfigured with object detection and categorization, and an understanding of object movement. We have to teach all that to the Tesla autopilot and so far it’s not doing so hot. The benefits of LIDAR and RADAR is you’re dealing with less data and it comes with depth so you don’t even have to figure out binocular vision.

by rtkwe 3y ago

nocoiner 3y ago

If, as another commenter said, this is only for use on freeways, I’m not sure how than is any different from the system in my 2021 BMW. Is MB’s assumption of liability the only thing pushing it up to L3? Otherwise the capabilities sound identical.

rtkwe 3y ago
Liability and legally endorsing a complete hands off driving interaction are the big differences. Cars have kind of been able to do this for a while but you're supposed to keep complete control of the vehicle with hands on the wheel (usually actively monitored with nags if it things you've taken your hands off). While your BMW's adaptive cruise control (or whatever BMW named their similar system) plus lane keep could basically do this it's legally just a driver assist where the Drive Pilot is taking the big step of being in legal control of the car.
- saberience 3y ago
  I don’t care about the legal liability I care about the actual features and capability of the system. If this thing can’t go faster than 50kph then it’s not better than my Honda civic from 2020, literally. I hate how this has gotten advertised as way better than a Tesla but actually it’s much much worse than a Tesla in terms of its actual ability to drive in all conditions.
  - rtkwe 3y ago
    It's more of a technical step forward than a feature step forward true but that's pretty significant still, IMO the gap between "driver assist" and full self driving is full of things like this. Adaptive cruise control + lane keeping + automatic lane change is, from a driver perspective, feature wise 80% of the way to highway self driving but they're all limited by the requirements that they're not hands-off features. That last gap of fully letting the user remove their hands from the wheel, explicitly, and assuming liability is putting a lot more trust in the system than your 2020 Civic. If they were as cavalier about driver safety and liability as Tesla they probably could have looser restrictions on it and just push the job of being a perfectly alert safety driver onto their customers..
- nocoiner 3y ago
  The BMW system is fully hands-free on freeways, under 40 mph, legible road markings, etc. It does indeed monitor the driver’s attention to the road and will deactivate if you aren’t looking for a while, but even with the assumption of liability, I suspect I’d use the MB system the exact same way I’d use my current system (i.e., with my eyes on the road!).
  - BoorishBears 3y ago
    Drive Pilot enables taking your eyes off the road, choosing to keep your eyes on the road doesn't undo that capability. They also guarantee 10 seconds between disengaging and requiring your control: meaning they're assuming liability during disengagements. They handle emergency vehicles, using external microphones to yield right of way for lights and sirens autonomously. _ Overall assuming liability took solving a lot of problems that laypeople keep assuming are trivial because L3 looks so similar to L2. I work in the AV industry and Drive Pilot leapfrogged a lot of offerings. BMW is just now working through European certification for the 7 series, so their original estimate of 2025 doesn't seem far off for US markets. Tesla apparently doesn't even want to try at this and is content with stretching the L2 rubber band as far as it can while pushing flashy demos
    - nocoiner 3y ago
      Thank you, I appreciate the information and additional context. I hope my comments didn’t sound like I was naysaying MB - I’m glad people are putting hard work into a hard problem. I just didn’t see at first how it was different from current systems I’m familiar with. Now I do!
orwin 3y ago
The commenter you're refering to is wrong and refer to a inaccurate/lying secondary source. Here is the primary source: https://unece.org/sites/default/files/2022-05/ECE-TRANS-WP.29-2022-59r1e.pdf https://unece.org/sites/default/files/2022-05/ECE-TRANS-WP.2... It's the second time in that much week that Ars Technica blatantly lie about what's in the primary source, maybe trusting nobody would check. I'll wait until my subscription finish, but i won't be retaking one next year.

spikels 3y ago

…also can’t be a construction zone. Since all the premapped routes are highways with speeds well above 40 mph and given that a “follow car” must be directly ahead of it, this is just for highway traffic jams under ideal conditions. Useful but very limited. Disagree that camera only will prove to be a mistake. Vision is how every car is operated and avoiding additional sensors simplifies development, reduces cost improving scalability.

rtkwe 3y ago
Operated by humans that way. We come conveniently preconfigured with object detection and categorization, and an understanding of object movement. We have to teach all that to the Tesla autopilot and so far it’s not doing so hot. The benefits of LIDAR and RADAR is you’re dealing with less data and it comes with depth so you don’t even have to figure out binocular vision.