5 ms·

Rusty revenant Servo returns to render once more

190 points by lproven 3y ago

capableweb 3y ago
> Servo has been around for about a decade, so as experimental software projects go, it's a mature one. Igalia developer Manuel Rego presented a talk which reports that the project is back under active development The talk: https://www.youtube.com/live/e3Y1C695CIw?si=dD8_tbyEezwei8As&t=4099 https://www.youtube.com/live/e3Y1C695CIw?si=dD8_tbyEezwei8As...
- lproven 3y ago
  [Author here] I did embed a link to it, but it looks like the start time is lost. I will try to get that put back in.
- weinzierl 3y ago
  Just to clarify for others that might be confused about the "about a decade": To the best of my knowledge it started in 2009. No criticism of the understatement, only to save others the look-up.
  - fzzzy 3y ago
    I think servo was 2011, rust itself was 9.
    - capableweb 3y ago
      29th of March 2012, to be specific for Servo. > Initial commit > @brson - committed Mar 29, 2012 - 0 parents commit 4825529 - Showing 1 changed file with 1,522 additions and 0 deletions. https://github.com/jdm/servo/commit/48255297b8958fa559d1170453d4c3922837781c https://github.com/jdm/servo/commit/48255297b8958fa559d11704...
      - weinzierl 3y ago
        I could not find a source from 2009 but the following is from 2010 and it already mentions Servo. http://venge.net/graydon/talks/intro-talk-2.pdf http://venge.net/graydon/talks/intro-talk-2.pdf The Wikipedia article about Rust says: "Mozilla began sponsoring the project in 2009 as a part of the ongoing development of an experimental browser engine called Servo [..]"
andybak 3y ago
Isn't Firefox Reality (now Wolvic) running on Servo?
- ComputerGuru 3y ago
  Maybe that’s what this is about? It’s Igalia.
  - lproven 3y ago
    [Article author/submitter here] I can only tell you that it is not what this is about, inasmuch as I was at the talk and there was not a single mention of Firefox Reality or Wolvic in the talk. Wolvic might use Servo – but I think if it did they would mention it, right? The talk didn't and the word "Wolvic" does not occur anywhere on https://servo.org https://servo.org So I am guessing not, no. Igalia has -- or rather is because it's a co-op -- about 100 developers. They are not all working on the same thing.
    - bkardell 3y ago
      Hi, Igalian here. I can tell you that Wolvic does not use Servo nor are there any immediate (or even long term at this point) plans for it to. That's not to say it couldn't happen someday or that it wouldn't be interesting. We are major contributors to a lot of major projects and many of them have something to do with web engines (see https://bkardell.com/blog/2023-Mid-Season-Power-Rankings.html https://bkardell.com/blog/2023-Mid-Season-Power-Rankings.htm...) so it's easy enough to see connections, but the connections are mainly often more generally just "we have a lot of interest in web stuff, and a great reputation for contributing".
- sp332 3y ago
  According to https://wolvic.com/en/faq/ https://wolvic.com/en/faq/ it uses GeckoView. Wolvic currently uses GeckoView. That said, as part of our experimentation in 2021, we showed a version of Firefox Reality backed with WPE WebKit through an experimental abstraction layer. Igalia has since developed a a robust abstration layer which will allow it to be somewhat more decoupled from the underlying engine, thus allowing different engine backends. We are currently in the process of integrating a Chromium backend.
AnonC 3y ago
> As well as being independent of any browser vendor, it is designed to be embeddable, memory-safe, modular, and parallel. How does Gecko (the engine used in Firefox) fare on being embedded? I thought it wasn't as easy or simple, and hence one of the reasons why Chromium dominated in things like Electron. I can't square these two statements in the article: > Servo has been around for about a decade, so as experimental software projects go, it's a mature one. > It still can't pass the Web Standards Project ACID tests, which way back in 2008 WebKit was the first browser to successfully handle, so there's clearly some way to go yet. I thought the goal of Servo, while it was incubated and paid for by Mozilla, was to absorb parts of it into Firefox over several years (or across decades) since this is a humongous undertaking. It's still painful to see Mozilla's revenues (mostly from Google) and how keeping Servo around could've helped in making a better browser, sooner (compared to current Firefox development).
- dthul 3y ago
  Quite a few parts of Servo were actually integrated into Firefox/Gecko (such as Stylo).
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  Do you really see a clear link from "better/safer/faster browsing rendering component" to "better revenues" or "better business situation" for Mozilla? Because I don't think I do, and I suspect Mozilla didn't either, really. As a Rust dev, and nerd generally, I love the idea of servo and if I were more excited about browsers and the web would even love to contribute to it. But unfortunately stuff like this isn't what makes or breaks project success in the short or even medium term. I use Firefox as my main browser everywhere now, but I didn't make the jump on any technical merits in rendering. Most days I barely notice which browser I'm on. I use Firefox because of the principles it represents and Google finally crossed the final lines with me, ethically. I don't know what the future holds for Firefox and Mozilla but I don't think it's fundamentally strongly altered by the success of servo. In any case, as a software engineering community we need to find ways to fund big picture projects like Servo etc. without having them tied to the fortunes and whims of various corporations. We lucked out with Linux filling a niche where it could explode in popularity and be securely funded for dev, but that hasn't been the case with lots of other things.
znpy 3y ago
Mozilla realized it was actually doing something useful and that such things would upset its unofficial corporate overlords, so it shut everything down. Hopefully one day we’ll have a fast and light web browser again :(
- lproven 3y ago
  [Author/submitter here] > Mozilla realized it was actually doing something useful and that such things would upset its unofficial corporate overlords, so it shut everything down. I don't think that is the case, no. If you have any kind of evidence, I would be very, very interested to see it. > Hopefully one day we’ll have a fast and light web browser again :( There are fast, light browsers around. I like NetSurf, which originated on RISC OS but now runs on lots of things. There's also Dillo. But they are small, fast and light because they don't do Javascript, and that makes them useless for a lot of stuff. I welcome suggestions on how to improve that situation. I do not think that Gemini is an answer. Midori used to be small, light and fast, but not any more. It's another Blink browser now, AFAIK. Epiphany is still quite snappy, and it's the only WebKit browser for Linux AFAIK. (This also means it's a fully native browser for Linux on Arm, because there's no Chrome for ordinary Arm Linux, or for Windows on Arm64. There is a native Arm64 Windows Firefox but it's well hidden. Chromium exists of course but it is quite limited.) Epiphany is also the best browser on Haiku.
  - SushiHippie 3y ago
    I don'r know if this counts but there is also https://www.qutebrowser.org/ https://www.qutebrowser.org/ which uses qt webkit IIUC
    - qD29Lno-oKXPLEv 3y ago
      qutebrowser doesn't really use webkit anymore. It was an alternative browser engine, but even the developers say that it isn't recommended. It now uses the QtWebEngine, which is chromium based: https://github.com/qutebrowser/qutebrowser#requirements https://github.com/qutebrowser/qutebrowser#requirements
WhatIsDukkha 3y ago
If this engine could manage all of htmx and most of tailwind it could be a very attractive local application platform.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  It just needs a stable embedding interface. I'm watching the speech to see if they have a stable, easy to compile release, with a documented embedding interface. That's all they actually need to make servo usable, but up to the last time I looked, they didn't plan on doing it.
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    I can't edit my comment anymore, but on the speech he goes into each one of those points and say they are immediate goals.
- afavour 3y ago
  I've still never used it but I've long been curious about Sciter: https://sciter.com https://sciter.com
  - infogulch 3y ago
    Yes it would be interesting to have a Sciter-like framework built on top of Servo.
  - yencabulator 3y ago
    Make sure to read the license carefully...
- timeon 3y ago
  > most of tailwind Also known as CSS.

190 points by lproven 3y ago

> Servo has been around for about a decade, so as experimental software projects go, it's a mature one. Igalia developer Manuel Rego presented a talk which reports that the project is back under active development The talk: https://www.youtube.com/live/e3Y1C695CIw?si=dD8_tbyEezwei8As&t=4099 https://www.youtube.com/live/e3Y1C695CIw?si=dD8_tbyEezwei8As...

lproven 3y ago
[Author here] I did embed a link to it, but it looks like the start time is lost. I will try to get that put back in.
weinzierl 3y ago
Just to clarify for others that might be confused about the "about a decade": To the best of my knowledge it started in 2009. No criticism of the understatement, only to save others the look-up.
- fzzzy 3y ago
  I think servo was 2011, rust itself was 9.
  - capableweb 3y ago
    29th of March 2012, to be specific for Servo. > Initial commit > @brson - committed Mar 29, 2012 - 0 parents commit 4825529 - Showing 1 changed file with 1,522 additions and 0 deletions. https://github.com/jdm/servo/commit/48255297b8958fa559d1170453d4c3922837781c https://github.com/jdm/servo/commit/48255297b8958fa559d11704...
    - weinzierl 3y ago
      I could not find a source from 2009 but the following is from 2010 and it already mentions Servo. http://venge.net/graydon/talks/intro-talk-2.pdf http://venge.net/graydon/talks/intro-talk-2.pdf The Wikipedia article about Rust says: "Mozilla began sponsoring the project in 2009 as a part of the ongoing development of an experimental browser engine called Servo [..]"

andybak 3y ago

Isn't Firefox Reality (now Wolvic) running on Servo?

ComputerGuru 3y ago
Maybe that’s what this is about? It’s Igalia.
- lproven 3y ago
  [Article author/submitter here] I can only tell you that it is not what this is about, inasmuch as I was at the talk and there was not a single mention of Firefox Reality or Wolvic in the talk. Wolvic might use Servo – but I think if it did they would mention it, right? The talk didn't and the word "Wolvic" does not occur anywhere on https://servo.org https://servo.org So I am guessing not, no. Igalia has -- or rather is because it's a co-op -- about 100 developers. They are not all working on the same thing.
  - bkardell 3y ago
    Hi, Igalian here. I can tell you that Wolvic does not use Servo nor are there any immediate (or even long term at this point) plans for it to. That's not to say it couldn't happen someday or that it wouldn't be interesting. We are major contributors to a lot of major projects and many of them have something to do with web engines (see https://bkardell.com/blog/2023-Mid-Season-Power-Rankings.html https://bkardell.com/blog/2023-Mid-Season-Power-Rankings.htm...) so it's easy enough to see connections, but the connections are mainly often more generally just "we have a lot of interest in web stuff, and a great reputation for contributing".
sp332 3y ago
According to https://wolvic.com/en/faq/ https://wolvic.com/en/faq/ it uses GeckoView. Wolvic currently uses GeckoView. That said, as part of our experimentation in 2021, we showed a version of Firefox Reality backed with WPE WebKit through an experimental abstraction layer. Igalia has since developed a a robust abstration layer which will allow it to be somewhat more decoupled from the underlying engine, thus allowing different engine backends. We are currently in the process of integrating a Chromium backend.

AnonC 3y ago

> As well as being independent of any browser vendor, it is designed to be embeddable, memory-safe, modular, and parallel. How does Gecko (the engine used in Firefox) fare on being embedded? I thought it wasn't as easy or simple, and hence one of the reasons why Chromium dominated in things like Electron. I can't square these two statements in the article: > Servo has been around for about a decade, so as experimental software projects go, it's a mature one. > It still can't pass the Web Standards Project ACID tests, which way back in 2008 WebKit was the first browser to successfully handle, so there's clearly some way to go yet. I thought the goal of Servo, while it was incubated and paid for by Mozilla, was to absorb parts of it into Firefox over several years (or across decades) since this is a humongous undertaking. It's still painful to see Mozilla's revenues (mostly from Google) and how keeping Servo around could've helped in making a better browser, sooner (compared to current Firefox development).

dthul 3y ago
Quite a few parts of Servo were actually integrated into Firefox/Gecko (such as Stylo).
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Do you really see a clear link from "better/safer/faster browsing rendering component" to "better revenues" or "better business situation" for Mozilla? Because I don't think I do, and I suspect Mozilla didn't either, really. As a Rust dev, and nerd generally, I love the idea of servo and if I were more excited about browsers and the web would even love to contribute to it. But unfortunately stuff like this isn't what makes or breaks project success in the short or even medium term. I use Firefox as my main browser everywhere now, but I didn't make the jump on any technical merits in rendering. Most days I barely notice which browser I'm on. I use Firefox because of the principles it represents and Google finally crossed the final lines with me, ethically. I don't know what the future holds for Firefox and Mozilla but I don't think it's fundamentally strongly altered by the success of servo. In any case, as a software engineering community we need to find ways to fund big picture projects like Servo etc. without having them tied to the fortunes and whims of various corporations. We lucked out with Linux filling a niche where it could explode in popularity and be securely funded for dev, but that hasn't been the case with lots of other things.

znpy 3y ago

Mozilla realized it was actually doing something useful and that such things would upset its unofficial corporate overlords, so it shut everything down. Hopefully one day we’ll have a fast and light web browser again :(

lproven 3y ago
[Author/submitter here] > Mozilla realized it was actually doing something useful and that such things would upset its unofficial corporate overlords, so it shut everything down. I don't think that is the case, no. If you have any kind of evidence, I would be very, very interested to see it. > Hopefully one day we’ll have a fast and light web browser again :( There are fast, light browsers around. I like NetSurf, which originated on RISC OS but now runs on lots of things. There's also Dillo. But they are small, fast and light because they don't do Javascript, and that makes them useless for a lot of stuff. I welcome suggestions on how to improve that situation. I do not think that Gemini is an answer. Midori used to be small, light and fast, but not any more. It's another Blink browser now, AFAIK. Epiphany is still quite snappy, and it's the only WebKit browser for Linux AFAIK. (This also means it's a fully native browser for Linux on Arm, because there's no Chrome for ordinary Arm Linux, or for Windows on Arm64. There is a native Arm64 Windows Firefox but it's well hidden. Chromium exists of course but it is quite limited.) Epiphany is also the best browser on Haiku.
- SushiHippie 3y ago
  I don'r know if this counts but there is also https://www.qutebrowser.org/ https://www.qutebrowser.org/ which uses qt webkit IIUC
  - qD29Lno-oKXPLEv 3y ago
    qutebrowser doesn't really use webkit anymore. It was an alternative browser engine, but even the developers say that it isn't recommended. It now uses the QtWebEngine, which is chromium based: https://github.com/qutebrowser/qutebrowser#requirements https://github.com/qutebrowser/qutebrowser#requirements

WhatIsDukkha 3y ago

If this engine could manage all of htmx and most of tailwind it could be a very attractive local application platform.

marcosdumay 3y ago
It just needs a stable embedding interface. I'm watching the speech to see if they have a stable, easy to compile release, with a documented embedding interface. That's all they actually need to make servo usable, but up to the last time I looked, they didn't plan on doing it.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  I can't edit my comment anymore, but on the speech he goes into each one of those points and say they are immediate goals.
afavour 3y ago
I've still never used it but I've long been curious about Sciter: https://sciter.com https://sciter.com
- infogulch 3y ago
  Yes it would be interesting to have a Sciter-like framework built on top of Servo.
- yencabulator 3y ago
  Make sure to read the license carefully...
timeon 3y ago
> most of tailwind Also known as CSS.