4 ms·

Some things are difficult to solve because equipment manufacturers don’t really need to. Power meters just need to be reasonably accurate to each other and rema

Some things are difficult to solve because equipment manufacturers don’t really need to. Power meters just need to be reasonably accurate to each other and remain accurate to themselves as they’re a training tool first and foremost. Some things are reasonably easy: don’t allow settings changes after a race starts. Why they don’t do this is beyond me. That said, weight doping seems to be a big enough concern that esports organisers mandate athletes compete in a set arena and weigh in beforehand and use their calibrated trainers. I’m not sure how you solve that for people at home.

prmoustache 3y ago
> I’m not sure how you solve that for people at home. You don't. And it is valid for most "e-sports". But I don't understand Zwift anyway. A big part of the joy of cycling is about being outside, feeling the wind, handling your bike. The actual physical exercise is important but it is not the whole thing. I understand pro racers using turbo trainers when the weather is so crappy so that they can do specific structured training necessary for their job. But amateurs??? If the weather is too crappy (which only really happen in freezing temps or storms), just do another sport or focus on another hobby while waiting for the weather to be better. Note: I am saying that as a former elite racer.
- mft_ 3y ago
  > But I don't understand Zwift anyway. A big part of the joy of cycling is about being outside, feeling the wind, handling your bike. The actual physical exercise is important but it is not the whole thing. I understand pro racers using turbo trainers when the weather is so crappy so that they can do specific structured training necessary for their job. But amateurs??? If the weather is too crappy (which only really happen in freezing temps or storms), just do another sport or focus on another hobby while waiting for the weather to be better. This seems unnecessarily narrow-minded. There are lots of hobbies and pastimes out there that lots of other people don't enjoy or understand; why the need to gate-keep, to judge? Maybe consider Zwift racing as competing on a computer game (think Fifa, or Fortnite, or Counter Strike) with the added bonus of exercise thrown in. It's also worth noting that the world of cycling is quite threatening when you're a relatively unfit amateur; even joining a local group ride can be scary, given the uncertainty of relative fitness and speeds. Attending a race is likely even more forboding, and it should be obvious that joining an anonymous online race would be magnitudes easier - logistically and psychologically.
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    > even joining a local group ride can be scary, given the uncertainty of relative fitness and speeds. You get dropped. So what? You just finish alone and happy no? Besides there are many rides with no drop rule (sometimes until the last 10km or so) or with regular regrouping. > Attending a race is likely even more forboding Usually you would join the local club where people would prepare you for it and possibly introduce you to the etiquette. Usually you need a federation license for racing anyway, and you need to be member of an affiliated club for that. I doubt Zwift, or any other esport, has no etiquette anyway. I heard people are called noobs in fps and esports for stupid reasons.[1] [1] like using default skin character in fortnite or things like that.
    - mft_ 3y ago
      > You get dropped. So what? You just finish alone and happy no? You feel shit. You feel useless. You feel a drag on the group. You give up on the idea of riding with an unknown group until you've gained more fitness riding on your own. > Besides there are many rides with no drop rule (sometimes until the last 10km or so) or with regular regrouping. There are many that aren't; and even if they are, believe me it sucks to be the one that's always having to be waited for. -- Take some well-meaning feedback from an anonymous person on the internet: you are seriously lacking empathy on this subject.
      - nradov 3y ago
        Speak for yourself. I've been dropped on group rides many times. It's no big deal. You would have to be really fragile to get upset about that. Clubs or bike stores will often have A/B/C road rides for different ability levels. Usually only the A ride is a drop ride, while the B and C rides have designated regroup points.
        scott_w 3y ago
        > You would have to be really fragile to get upset about that. Attitudes like this are what stop many new riders from joining cycling clubs, myself included.
- laweijfmvo 3y ago
  I do cycle outside and love it, but for raw exercise nothing beats getting on the Peloton (or Zwift), putting your head down, music on, and cranking. It’s two different sports.
- usrusr 3y ago
  You don't need to participate in formal races to enjoy the ability to go fast and/or far. Even before Strava, people would "race" each other in group rides whenever a hill comes up, and themselves whenever they hit their standard loop. Plenty of non-racers have turbos to get them through winter, some of them use Zwift to make it a little less boring.
- rypskar 3y ago
  >>A big part of the joy of cycling is about being outside That depends a lot on where you live, a road bike and snow is not a good combination. For me it is a joy for about 4 months a year, where 2 of the months is when my allergy is at it worst. So the rest of the year is training inside on a trainer
- scott_w 3y ago
  It’s fine to not want to do that but there are plenty of reasons to use indoor training: * Easier to do a session * Weather is too bad (either today or the entire winter) * Want to maintain some fitness through winter * More convenient on that day (just finished work) I don’t use Zwift for racing but then I live on the outskirts of a fairly remote city so it’s easy to get outside. I think I’d feel differently if I lived in Central London.
usrusr 3y ago
Zwift had that one solved just fine for years: recognize the fight you can't win and never ever give the impression that the platform might be good for racing. Before they did a radical 180 on that topic, racing was the one feature users were suggesting over and over again that Zwift staunchly rejected. Then the usual happened, ran out of VC money. Zwift are knee deep in the viscous cycle of raise money, hire lots of people with that money because you are obliged to spend the money you raised, fail to out-earn your newly inflated costs, try raising more money. Of course they need a story to tell investors, a story why this time it will all be different, and one time, after "running!" and before "our own hardware!", it was "racing", abandoning all careful avoidance of the cheating problem in a 125M hail Mary: "we'll introduce racing! TV licences and sponsoring will make all our troubles faint memories". (at the time there were independent racing clubs doing events on the platform thatvtolerated them at best, which must have helped selling this story a lot) Running is still a non-starter four years after introduction (fully unlocked on a free tier, and most of the very few runners you see I the platform are probably triathletes who just use the virtual cycling platform for the treadmill as well because they already have an account) and the hardware division was closed before the first product (current offerings are badge-engineered third party). Racing is certainly not quite as successful as hoped and suffering from exactly the same chatting problems that made them carefully avoid racing at first, but compared to those other "funding round stories", it's looking not quite as bad. They are still hopelessly overspending, but it seems that by the time of "racing will solve all our problem", they were at least aware of the viscous cycle problem and burnt off most of the excess money that didn't go to compensate ongoing losses as ad spending, instead of hiring even more.

prmoustache 3y ago

> I’m not sure how you solve that for people at home. You don't. And it is valid for most "e-sports". But I don't understand Zwift anyway. A big part of the joy of cycling is about being outside, feeling the wind, handling your bike. The actual physical exercise is important but it is not the whole thing. I understand pro racers using turbo trainers when the weather is so crappy so that they can do specific structured training necessary for their job. But amateurs??? If the weather is too crappy (which only really happen in freezing temps or storms), just do another sport or focus on another hobby while waiting for the weather to be better. Note: I am saying that as a former elite racer.

mft_ 3y ago
> But I don't understand Zwift anyway. A big part of the joy of cycling is about being outside, feeling the wind, handling your bike. The actual physical exercise is important but it is not the whole thing. I understand pro racers using turbo trainers when the weather is so crappy so that they can do specific structured training necessary for their job. But amateurs??? If the weather is too crappy (which only really happen in freezing temps or storms), just do another sport or focus on another hobby while waiting for the weather to be better. This seems unnecessarily narrow-minded. There are lots of hobbies and pastimes out there that lots of other people don't enjoy or understand; why the need to gate-keep, to judge? Maybe consider Zwift racing as competing on a computer game (think Fifa, or Fortnite, or Counter Strike) with the added bonus of exercise thrown in. It's also worth noting that the world of cycling is quite threatening when you're a relatively unfit amateur; even joining a local group ride can be scary, given the uncertainty of relative fitness and speeds. Attending a race is likely even more forboding, and it should be obvious that joining an anonymous online race would be magnitudes easier - logistically and psychologically.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  > even joining a local group ride can be scary, given the uncertainty of relative fitness and speeds. You get dropped. So what? You just finish alone and happy no? Besides there are many rides with no drop rule (sometimes until the last 10km or so) or with regular regrouping. > Attending a race is likely even more forboding Usually you would join the local club where people would prepare you for it and possibly introduce you to the etiquette. Usually you need a federation license for racing anyway, and you need to be member of an affiliated club for that. I doubt Zwift, or any other esport, has no etiquette anyway. I heard people are called noobs in fps and esports for stupid reasons.[1] [1] like using default skin character in fortnite or things like that.
  - mft_ 3y ago
    > You get dropped. So what? You just finish alone and happy no? You feel shit. You feel useless. You feel a drag on the group. You give up on the idea of riding with an unknown group until you've gained more fitness riding on your own. > Besides there are many rides with no drop rule (sometimes until the last 10km or so) or with regular regrouping. There are many that aren't; and even if they are, believe me it sucks to be the one that's always having to be waited for. -- Take some well-meaning feedback from an anonymous person on the internet: you are seriously lacking empathy on this subject.
    - nradov 3y ago
      Speak for yourself. I've been dropped on group rides many times. It's no big deal. You would have to be really fragile to get upset about that. Clubs or bike stores will often have A/B/C road rides for different ability levels. Usually only the A ride is a drop ride, while the B and C rides have designated regroup points.
      - scott_w 3y ago
        > You would have to be really fragile to get upset about that. Attitudes like this are what stop many new riders from joining cycling clubs, myself included.
laweijfmvo 3y ago
I do cycle outside and love it, but for raw exercise nothing beats getting on the Peloton (or Zwift), putting your head down, music on, and cranking. It’s two different sports.
usrusr 3y ago
You don't need to participate in formal races to enjoy the ability to go fast and/or far. Even before Strava, people would "race" each other in group rides whenever a hill comes up, and themselves whenever they hit their standard loop. Plenty of non-racers have turbos to get them through winter, some of them use Zwift to make it a little less boring.
rypskar 3y ago
>>A big part of the joy of cycling is about being outside That depends a lot on where you live, a road bike and snow is not a good combination. For me it is a joy for about 4 months a year, where 2 of the months is when my allergy is at it worst. So the rest of the year is training inside on a trainer
scott_w 3y ago
It’s fine to not want to do that but there are plenty of reasons to use indoor training: * Easier to do a session * Weather is too bad (either today or the entire winter) * Want to maintain some fitness through winter * More convenient on that day (just finished work) I don’t use Zwift for racing but then I live on the outskirts of a fairly remote city so it’s easy to get outside. I think I’d feel differently if I lived in Central London.

usrusr 3y ago

Zwift had that one solved just fine for years: recognize the fight you can't win and never ever give the impression that the platform might be good for racing. Before they did a radical 180 on that topic, racing was the one feature users were suggesting over and over again that Zwift staunchly rejected. Then the usual happened, ran out of VC money. Zwift are knee deep in the viscous cycle of raise money, hire lots of people with that money because you are obliged to spend the money you raised, fail to out-earn your newly inflated costs, try raising more money. Of course they need a story to tell investors, a story why this time it will all be different, and one time, after "running!" and before "our own hardware!", it was "racing", abandoning all careful avoidance of the cheating problem in a 125M hail Mary: "we'll introduce racing! TV licences and sponsoring will make all our troubles faint memories". (at the time there were independent racing clubs doing events on the platform thatvtolerated them at best, which must have helped selling this story a lot) Running is still a non-starter four years after introduction (fully unlocked on a free tier, and most of the very few runners you see I the platform are probably triathletes who just use the virtual cycling platform for the treadmill as well because they already have an account) and the hardware division was closed before the first product (current offerings are badge-engineered third party). Racing is certainly not quite as successful as hoped and suffering from exactly the same chatting problems that made them carefully avoid racing at first, but compared to those other "funding round stories", it's looking not quite as bad. They are still hopelessly overspending, but it seems that by the time of "racing will solve all our problem", they were at least aware of the viscous cycle problem and burnt off most of the excess money that didn't go to compensate ongoing losses as ad spending, instead of hiring even more.