7 ms·

I’m going to get pilloried for this but I like the rather draconian heavy handed way Apple keeps iOS locked down. It’s an appliance. I can trust it. If or when

I’m going to get pilloried for this but I like the rather draconian heavy handed way Apple keeps iOS locked down. It’s an appliance. I can trust it. If or when it gets opened up I’ll still stick to all the Apple or first party stores and things. That the iPhone is locked down and android is open is a feature and difference that consumers choose I think.

seydor 3y ago
I dont agree with it at all, but you are right, people buy apple because need to trust somebody and they trust apple to keep making the right product for them. I don't even consider them superior but certainly trustworthy. Whatever changes apple implements would have to be easily revertable so people can go back to their golden prison.
- FredPret 3y ago
  It’s not a prison to keep me in. It’s a wall to keep bad things out.
  - jabiko 3y ago
    And so is my apartment door. But I can open the door whenever I want and its not up to my landlord to decide which guests I invite.
    - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
      Except that it is certainly up to everything you consume to demand that you install their app through their shitty third party store. Imagine if your appliance manufacturer could dictate that you kept your door open for them.
      - laniakean 3y ago
        So why do you think this hasn't happened in android yet?
        PartiallyTyped 3y ago
        Epic tried. So it has already happened.
        dpatterbee 3y ago
        Epic failed.
        sambazi 3y ago
        so close
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        quitit 3y ago
        Monitoring surveillance-style software is already commonplace, just not on iOS. For example Bossware has been common since covid and it's not a stretch to imagine a future where health and other types of insurers use similar software to ensure that you're not partaking in risk. Consumers need more than every developer to act in good faith. Example data collected by bossware surveillance applications include: keylogging, email monitoring, productivity tracking, screen recording, audio recording, camera recording, presence detectors, social media monitoring, time tracking, web browsing activity, location tracking, file search etc Such apps would never receive approval from the app store, nor would they receive the necessary permissions to even ask for such invasive access. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/apr/27/remote-work-software-home-surveillance-computer-monitoring-pandemic https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/apr/27/remote-wo...
        summm 3y ago
        This is what laws, citizens rights and unions are for. You should not need to submit to a feudal lord such as apple in order to enjoy protection from such inhuman practices.
  - politelemon 3y ago
    This reads like a modern retelling of the Stockholm syndrome and I cringe at this prevalent attitude on HN. If you do not have choice on the platform, you are in a prison. That is why it's called jailbreaking.
    - gigatexal 3y ago
      Are you or folks that take this same tact marching on Microsoft and Sony with pitchforks to open up the OS and hardware for Xbox and PlayStation?
      - sensanaty 3y ago
        How would that be a bad thing? All that would mean is users get the best of both worlds, so yes please.
      - gigatexal 3y ago
        be it a good or bad thing aside it's not being clamored for yet Apple is being forced to because they're the largest company in the world. it's a double standard in thinking really and i just think folks should be consistent. i have an xbox one x, it does what it was designed to do and it does it well. I have a desktop computer i built. it was designed to run anything that runs on x86 and designed to be open. so i run linux. i love it. i just figure i use the tools as they were meant to be used. i am a bit inconsistent though ... i do support the asahi folks in their attempts at getting linux supported on m1 hardware. but they're not bemoaning apple's closed attitude to other operating systems on apple silicon they're taking more of the jailbreaker's approach of hacking their way in. more power to them. that's the rub i think. folks trying to use the courts or mobs to force the hand of a company to do a thing for hardware that was designed to be closed in the first place.
      - DoItToMe81 3y ago
        A phone is not a game console, and the opening of the hardware would be good either way.
    - hyperbovine 3y ago
      You do have a choice. Buy an Android phone.
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    So you can still stay behind the wall if you want while others can break from the prison))) that's the point
  - seydor 3y ago
    A wall is a contraption that you can take down if you fancy. A prison is not
- quitit 3y ago
  I just don't really understand how allowing side loading on the platform will "fix" anything for consumers. The thinking seems entirely shallow, there isn't even any consideration for how these 3rd party stores will handle permission bits to protect the user's data. It just seems something that would be really good for large companies like Spotify, and suck for small developers who will still need to rely on the App Store (and its commission) for visibility. If the EU is so interested in which apps are available on iOS and eliminating any discriminatory practices, then the EU should legislate that the App Store approval process be made independent, heck the EU can run it themselves for the EU-states.
  - paulmd 3y ago
    > The thinking seems entirely shallow, there isn't even any consideration for how these 3rd party stores will handle permission bits to protect the user's data. this is a feature for the companies pushing for it - this is literally the entire point, in fact! facebook wants to be able to use sideloading to push this stuff again: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/facebook-and-google-offered-gift-cards-for-root-level-access-to-ios-users-data/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/facebook-and-google-... for the consumers pushing for it, I think there's a pretty good mixture of rationales: some of it is good-faith belief that everything should be open (although you can see from the defense around consoles that many people do not fall into this camp). some of it is just ignorance or not thinking it through. and some of it is brand-warriorism/fanboyism, the people who want to legislate a solution to the android/iphone wars, or simply are doing it because they know it's something apple users care about and that burning it down will make them upset. the usual human mixture of reasons, basically. but for companies? yeah, they fucking know it's gonna undercut the permissioning system, that's the whole fucking point. because right now they have apple standing in the way doing app review. they can't overturn apple, they have to go around them, but apple is the gatekeeper on their platform. or, was. companies know there's fanboyism they can exploit to their own goals, and is perfectly happy to use these, ahem, "temporary allies". Just like the google "pwease use RCS, it's so open!" page that gets passed around uncritically, completely omitting the fact that google isn't using RCS, it's using a proprietary fork of RCS and it's already blocking third-party interop from interested parties. https://ianbetteridge.com/2022/08/19/please-wont-someone-stop-the-bullshit-about-rcs/ https://ianbetteridge.com/2022/08/19/please-wont-someone-sto... (If that's open then macos is open because it's based on freeBSD, right?)
jokethrowaway 3y ago
Indeed, if you don't like it you can buy another product. That should be Apple's choice. Sure, users will likely benefit from this but I don't see why the EU needs to regulate this.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  Ppl like good hardware and sw support but want more freedom, why not allow this? I hope for a similar law for other systems like smartwatches, infotainment systems, etc
  - throwaway45680 3y ago
    People get good hardware and sw support thanks to the reduced "freedom".
    - Moldoteck 3y ago
      Wut? Proofs? Mac m1 has both and more freedom
      - throwaway45680 3y ago
        Mac m1 exists thanks to iPhone profits.
Moldoteck 3y ago
So you say iphone can offer alternate stores/sideload and still keep old behavior for users that want to stay in apple's ecosystem? So why lock down iphone then? Consumers that want it locked down, will keep their old routines...
- gigatexal 3y ago
  If governments force Apple's hand so be it what can Apple do then, but if I could help it, I'd not want it to be opened up for 3rd parties.
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    why? id doesn't affect your freedom to use only appstore
    - gigatexal 3y ago
      Because it opens the possibility for folks to get duped into installing something from a different app store that could lead to all sorts of problems. I am thinking about less sophisticated users like my boomer mom and aunts and uncles who if you're a nerd like me you're often the relied upon first line of tech support.
      - Moldoteck 3y ago
        for them you can implement parental control if that's so important, or aple could just put a ton of warnings and dangers with big red cancel button and gray 'I want to continue button' with some additional warnings. In my experience, the second they see this messages, they'll exit the process
    - a-user-you-like 3y ago
      The coercion is the problem. You are free to buy any phone you want, but want to coerce other men into doing what you want. It’s immoral.
thunkshift1 3y ago
You know the implementation, if any, is going tobe optional for end users right? You dont have to install anything you dont want to.

seydor 3y ago

I dont agree with it at all, but you are right, people buy apple because need to trust somebody and they trust apple to keep making the right product for them. I don't even consider them superior but certainly trustworthy. Whatever changes apple implements would have to be easily revertable so people can go back to their golden prison.

FredPret 3y ago
It’s not a prison to keep me in. It’s a wall to keep bad things out.
- jabiko 3y ago
  And so is my apartment door. But I can open the door whenever I want and its not up to my landlord to decide which guests I invite.
  - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
    Except that it is certainly up to everything you consume to demand that you install their app through their shitty third party store. Imagine if your appliance manufacturer could dictate that you kept your door open for them.
    - laniakean 3y ago
      So why do you think this hasn't happened in android yet?
      - PartiallyTyped 3y ago
        Epic tried. So it has already happened.
        dpatterbee 3y ago
        Epic failed.
        sambazi 3y ago
        so close
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - quitit 3y ago
        Monitoring surveillance-style software is already commonplace, just not on iOS. For example Bossware has been common since covid and it's not a stretch to imagine a future where health and other types of insurers use similar software to ensure that you're not partaking in risk. Consumers need more than every developer to act in good faith. Example data collected by bossware surveillance applications include: keylogging, email monitoring, productivity tracking, screen recording, audio recording, camera recording, presence detectors, social media monitoring, time tracking, web browsing activity, location tracking, file search etc Such apps would never receive approval from the app store, nor would they receive the necessary permissions to even ask for such invasive access. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/apr/27/remote-work-software-home-surveillance-computer-monitoring-pandemic https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/apr/27/remote-wo...
        summm 3y ago
        This is what laws, citizens rights and unions are for. You should not need to submit to a feudal lord such as apple in order to enjoy protection from such inhuman practices.
- politelemon 3y ago
  This reads like a modern retelling of the Stockholm syndrome and I cringe at this prevalent attitude on HN. If you do not have choice on the platform, you are in a prison. That is why it's called jailbreaking.
  - gigatexal 3y ago
    Are you or folks that take this same tact marching on Microsoft and Sony with pitchforks to open up the OS and hardware for Xbox and PlayStation?
    - sensanaty 3y ago
      How would that be a bad thing? All that would mean is users get the best of both worlds, so yes please.
    - gigatexal 3y ago
      be it a good or bad thing aside it's not being clamored for yet Apple is being forced to because they're the largest company in the world. it's a double standard in thinking really and i just think folks should be consistent. i have an xbox one x, it does what it was designed to do and it does it well. I have a desktop computer i built. it was designed to run anything that runs on x86 and designed to be open. so i run linux. i love it. i just figure i use the tools as they were meant to be used. i am a bit inconsistent though ... i do support the asahi folks in their attempts at getting linux supported on m1 hardware. but they're not bemoaning apple's closed attitude to other operating systems on apple silicon they're taking more of the jailbreaker's approach of hacking their way in. more power to them. that's the rub i think. folks trying to use the courts or mobs to force the hand of a company to do a thing for hardware that was designed to be closed in the first place.
    - DoItToMe81 3y ago
      A phone is not a game console, and the opening of the hardware would be good either way.
  - hyperbovine 3y ago
    You do have a choice. Buy an Android phone.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  So you can still stay behind the wall if you want while others can break from the prison))) that's the point
- seydor 3y ago
  A wall is a contraption that you can take down if you fancy. A prison is not
quitit 3y ago
I just don't really understand how allowing side loading on the platform will "fix" anything for consumers. The thinking seems entirely shallow, there isn't even any consideration for how these 3rd party stores will handle permission bits to protect the user's data. It just seems something that would be really good for large companies like Spotify, and suck for small developers who will still need to rely on the App Store (and its commission) for visibility. If the EU is so interested in which apps are available on iOS and eliminating any discriminatory practices, then the EU should legislate that the App Store approval process be made independent, heck the EU can run it themselves for the EU-states.
- paulmd 3y ago
  > The thinking seems entirely shallow, there isn't even any consideration for how these 3rd party stores will handle permission bits to protect the user's data. this is a feature for the companies pushing for it - this is literally the entire point, in fact! facebook wants to be able to use sideloading to push this stuff again: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/facebook-and-google-offered-gift-cards-for-root-level-access-to-ios-users-data/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/facebook-and-google-... for the consumers pushing for it, I think there's a pretty good mixture of rationales: some of it is good-faith belief that everything should be open (although you can see from the defense around consoles that many people do not fall into this camp). some of it is just ignorance or not thinking it through. and some of it is brand-warriorism/fanboyism, the people who want to legislate a solution to the android/iphone wars, or simply are doing it because they know it's something apple users care about and that burning it down will make them upset. the usual human mixture of reasons, basically. but for companies? yeah, they fucking know it's gonna undercut the permissioning system, that's the whole fucking point. because right now they have apple standing in the way doing app review. they can't overturn apple, they have to go around them, but apple is the gatekeeper on their platform. or, was. companies know there's fanboyism they can exploit to their own goals, and is perfectly happy to use these, ahem, "temporary allies". Just like the google "pwease use RCS, it's so open!" page that gets passed around uncritically, completely omitting the fact that google isn't using RCS, it's using a proprietary fork of RCS and it's already blocking third-party interop from interested parties. https://ianbetteridge.com/2022/08/19/please-wont-someone-stop-the-bullshit-about-rcs/ https://ianbetteridge.com/2022/08/19/please-wont-someone-sto... (If that's open then macos is open because it's based on freeBSD, right?)

jokethrowaway 3y ago

Indeed, if you don't like it you can buy another product. That should be Apple's choice. Sure, users will likely benefit from this but I don't see why the EU needs to regulate this.

Moldoteck 3y ago
Ppl like good hardware and sw support but want more freedom, why not allow this? I hope for a similar law for other systems like smartwatches, infotainment systems, etc
- throwaway45680 3y ago
  People get good hardware and sw support thanks to the reduced "freedom".
  - Moldoteck 3y ago
    Wut? Proofs? Mac m1 has both and more freedom
    - throwaway45680 3y ago
      Mac m1 exists thanks to iPhone profits.

Moldoteck 3y ago

So you say iphone can offer alternate stores/sideload and still keep old behavior for users that want to stay in apple's ecosystem? So why lock down iphone then? Consumers that want it locked down, will keep their old routines...

gigatexal 3y ago
If governments force Apple's hand so be it what can Apple do then, but if I could help it, I'd not want it to be opened up for 3rd parties.
- Moldoteck 3y ago
  why? id doesn't affect your freedom to use only appstore
  - gigatexal 3y ago
    Because it opens the possibility for folks to get duped into installing something from a different app store that could lead to all sorts of problems. I am thinking about less sophisticated users like my boomer mom and aunts and uncles who if you're a nerd like me you're often the relied upon first line of tech support.
    - Moldoteck 3y ago
      for them you can implement parental control if that's so important, or aple could just put a ton of warnings and dangers with big red cancel button and gray 'I want to continue button' with some additional warnings. In my experience, the second they see this messages, they'll exit the process
  - a-user-you-like 3y ago
    The coercion is the problem. You are free to buy any phone you want, but want to coerce other men into doing what you want. It’s immoral.

thunkshift1 3y ago

You know the implementation, if any, is going tobe optional for end users right? You dont have to install anything you dont want to.