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Ask HN: Why don't more middle-class Americans emigrate to Europe?
I am on a European vacation right now, and I'm amazed by how healthy and prosperous the average European looks. I'm aware Europeans tend to have lower incomes (especially in the tech sector), but it seems that a great quality of life is much easier to achieve for the average person. So I would think that millions of middle-class Americans would benefit enormously from emigrating to Europe (the lower class would also benefit, but I suppose that emigration is more difficult for those with limited education and skills).
Here are some reasons I considered, feel free to add more:
- It's hard to be rational about quality-of-life issues. A salary is a number that can be compared, but QoL isn't, so people can't make decisions based on it
- It's actually hard for middle-class Americans to emigrate to Europe, for complex technical reasons
- Americans are afraid of learning languages, and the language barrier is a big factor
- American immigrants can't actually achieve the QoL that native Europeans have, for social reasons (hard to get promoted, make friends, etc)
- European QoL isn't actually that good, it just seems good on the surface. The well-dressed and healthy people I'm seeing on the streets are actually miserable
- Americans think of themselves as "temporarily frustrated millionaires". An American accepts lower QoL for a shot at one day making it big, even though most are going to be disappointed
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- endisneigh 3y agoWhy don't you move to Europe permanently - maybe that will help answer your question?
- donnie12345 3y ago[dead]
- csomar 3y agoEuropa is kinda big. It would help us to point out where you saw this average European citizen. (was it in the Swedish Capital or in the south of Italy in Sardinia?).
- sybercecurity 3y ago"Quality of life" is relative, some people feel being isolated from family/established friends by being several time zones away to be a negative. Especially if a family with school aged kids are involved. I would guess the biggest factor is cultural: the US was always viewed as the place to immigrate to if you wanted a "good life", not emigrate from. That includes the language issue - other languages were rarely encouraged since there was enough geographic diversity and opportunity that it was't necessary, people came here and learned English, not the other way around. Those US citizens that emigrated were assumed to leave because they wanted to experience a foreign culture, not necessarily because of quality of life issues. Most people just don't see it as an option because they don't know anyone who has emigrated.
- zeroego 3y agoI'm a middle-class person from the US. I've even had several short stints of living in Europe. I'd love to live in one of the countries there, but being a little bit older now I really don't want to start over again. Making new friends is hard, and it gets harder the older you get. Not to mention family here in the states. I've spent a few holiday seasons alone and it sucks. To add to your QoL statement I feel as though European countries have a different kind of QoL. Here in the states the material quality of life is high. Things here are cheap compared to the rest of the world. Whereas in say, Germany, the social QoL is higher. People are more taken care of there and overall have less stress. Cities are walk-able, trains can actually take you where you want to go in a reasonable amount of time, a sense of community still exists. I think of lot of people from the US value the type of QoL we have here over what they have in various European countries.
- laurentl 3y agoDefine "middle class Americans"? Hard to give a precise answer otherwise. A few (other) explanations: * QoL is hard to be rational about, and is something that (I think) has to be experienced first-hand. European salaries are most probably lower for comparable jobs (they certainly are for high-wage workers) but pack more punch because of better social benefits and, depending on where you live, lower CoL. However it can be hard to convince yourself that 40 k€ in Spain affords you a better QoL than 80k$ in California unless you've experienced both. I mean, 40 is much less than 80, right? * the "American Dream" is still a big part of the American (and global, for that matter) psyche. I would wager most Americans think the US is a place to emigrate to, not from. I don't know if many middle-class Americans would spontaneously envision emigrating to Europe. This is probably even more true for descendants of recent immigrants: if your family struggled to get to the US, why would you consider leaving? * Ability to live abroad, in particular mastering a foreign language well enough to live and work in the country * I'm not sure how well employability travels. You can work as a developer in just about any country but I think this is an exception. A medical diploma does not transfer well between countries (e.g. you probably need to start again as an intern, re-take exams, etc.), neither does a law diploma. More "middle class" jobs will have similar barriers to entry. E.g. if you're a plumber in the US and move to Europe you have to deal with different construction codes, installed base, local habits... Same thing if you're an auto mechanic: different car manufacturers, different regulations, etc.
- onecommentman 3y agoAmericans in HCOL locations have a third option to Europe, and that is the rest of the United States. RoUS provides close to a factor of two cost savings, you speak the language, same level of bureaucracy, close (enough) to family, similar enough culture to be comforting but with enough differences to make it interesting (desert Southwest, Deep South, New England, Florida Keys, Midwest, Appalachia, PNW, Intermountain West, Alaska, Hawaii, Texas…). Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean a drive/cruise away and provide their own long term opportunities. The United States is much more culturally diverse than the few places Europeans choose to visit for extended stays. The United States offers a political stability that Europe has yet to demonstrate long-term (cherry-picking here, but let’s say over the last 150 years, two modern lifetimes). The comic opera/snuff film of European wars in the 1900s did provide 104366 young Americans with a forced permanent relocation to Europe. Not a positive memory for Americans. And Americans can develop a community in the United States that achieves many of the charming aspects of European life. Americans have both the freedom and gumption to do that, if they wish. Americans are not limited by land nor resources, intellectual, cultural or otherwise, nor vision.
- Someone1234 3y agoMost Americans wouldn't be eligible for a resident visa to move to most European countries (and vice-versa); and when they would the process is long and expensive. I don't know why people from the US often, even knowing about their own country's strict immigration requirements, assume that they themselves can just pick up and move to any country they want (e.g. Europe, Canada, Australia, etc). 9/10s of the US population aren't in high demand jobs, most countries don't want you.
- meetingthrower 3y agoThis. Actually the US has one of the most PERMISSIVE immigration regimes IN THE WORLD. Everywhere is very far to the right of us, including Canada.
- 2rsf 3y agoFrom anecdotal cases here in Sweden I can say that adjusting to a more "socialist" way of life is not always easy. Few American colleagues, all young healthy and unmarried, left after a few years because they couldn't handle the high taxes and more expensive prices. But as other have mentioned this is a very theoretical question. A software engineer will do just fine, like I did, while a restaurant worker might find it harder.
- _fat_santa 3y agoAs someone who immigrated to the US, the US has a standard of living that is "different" than it is in the EU. It's not better or worse than the EU, just different. It's not big stuff but rather a combination of a bunch of small stuff. - Houses are typically older, smaller and most scrunched together. This might be normal for someone in Europe but it's jarring for an American who expects a house with a lawn and white picket fence. - The cars are typically smaller, again not something that's objectively better or worse but different. American's are used to big cars and the compact car culture in the EU is also jarring. These are just two examples but it comes down to just about everything. I am not saying the standard of living in the US is better than it is in the EU, it's just different, and that difference is why most Americans will never move to the EU.
- asciimov 3y ago1. Family and support systems are here, not Europe. 2. Cost. I do not thing you understand how unfathomably expensive it would be to move from North America to Europe. Heck moving around the States can be extremely expensive already. 3. Unfamiliar culture. The average American is steeped in American Culture and is ignorant of anything elsewhere. 4. No ties to Europe. 5. Desire. Americans are blasted every day about opportunities here. We constantly hear about immigrants coming here but we never hear about opportunities over there. Our news plays into this, as they only cover bad things, so if we hear about Europe it's epically bad.
- mattbrewsbytes 3y agoGood ordering. There's also the entire topic of visa's and right to work in places in EU that may have restrictions on foreigners taking jobs away. Vacationing to places in EU is fun but you won't see/hear about the large issues the people living there have on a daily basis. You're a tourist doing sight-seeing.
- Symbiote 3y agoCost depends on how much you own. A colleague moved here from Canada with two suitcases. Someone else brought an entire container of furniture. I moved here with 1m³ of stuff sent by road/sea and three suitcases on the plane, but some years later and I somehow own an apartment full of stuff.
- keiferski 3y agoAs an American that has lived in Europe for nearly a decade now, I think you vastly underestimate the cultural differences between the two continents. I think the average middle class American would feel boxed in here, annoyed by the constant bureaucratic action required to get things done, and somewhat confused by the general lack of "can do" attitude. Moving here requires the ability to be a kind of permanent outsider who nonetheless is reminded by the dominance of his culture on every corner. It's a strange feeling and not one that I think most people are prepared to deal with. Edit, in case I was unclear: by "dominant," I mean that American culture is everywhere. McDonalds, Starbucks, Hollywood celebrities, Netflix shows, hamburgers, popular music, on and on. European youth culture is probably more influenced by American culture (via the Internet) than any other single source.
- dauertewigkeit 3y agoYour post is the most on point. The culture is way too different and especially for this community it should be obvious: the risk averse culture, the pessimism, the crabs in a bucket mentality and the relative lack of economic opportunities, especially in IT.
- fatfingerd 3y agoThat sounds like Pennsylvania? Naturally there are key cities that you can't get on other continents and for many IT people that's usually San Francisco. But if you aren't actually in one of these key places it's often a matter of imagination that you think the place you are in is similar culturally, etc.
- ipaddr 3y agoAmish country sure but Philadelphia accepts a level of risk europe wouldn't
- fatfingerd 3y agoI suppose throwing dynamite from helicopters is a choice, but I still see Philadelphia as more of a living with risk place than a place that benefits from intelligent risk taking.
- usgroup 3y agoHere is a complimentary question: why don't Americans living in state X move to state Y whereby state Y would be clearly better for them? I think it answers most of the original question.
- 8b16380d 3y agoImmigration is pretty restricted in many European countries, with things like employment and language requirements. As they should be I suppose; I am not sure these countries want an influx of millions of Americans. Not to mention, there are tax implications for American citizens that make it economically unfeasible.
- inkcapmushroom 3y agoThe tax thing is not something to be underestimated. If you want to keep an American citizenship you have to pay income tax on all the money you make living abroad at the same rate as if you made the money in the US. The doubled tax burden makes it very expensive to legally live abroad without giving up your US citizenship (which many people want to keep for a large number of reasons). The tax code allows for deducting the income taxed by a foreign country from your US tax obligations but as I understand it's complicated, only certain types of income can be excluded, there are caps on how much income can be ignored, etc. Basically everything from retirement savings to starting a company or changing jobs becomes a big hassle that you definitely need a specialist stateside accountant to help you with. The US is almost unique in this regard: only Eritrea and North Korea also have similar laws. Most places will only tax money you make when you live in that country.
- ipaddr 3y agoMany countries have tax treaties with the US. UK, Germany, Ukraine, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Poland, etc.
- vannevar 3y ago> ...I'm amazed by how healthy and prosperous the average European looks. Are you sure you're seeing the "average European?" Europe is a pretty big, diverse place. If you're spending most of your time in the wealthier parts of town in a big city, you're going to see a very different Europe than the poor section of a rural village.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- djohnston 3y agoYou make less money and pay more taxes. It’s a slightly better quality of life but not that much in my experience. Although public healthcare is pretty darn cool. Anyways it’s not black and white even for me, and visas aren’t that easy to get.
- ahoka 3y agoLess taxes? Are you sure? https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Labor-Taxes-and-Compulsory-Payments-as-Percent-of-Average-Wage-2.png https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2019...
- Jka9rhnDJos 3y agoI like how not one of your considerations is family and familial support. I can’t move because I can’t abandon my child, and if I could somehow take my kid with me (legally, but that’s not happening since other parent would never give up her rights), I would arrive with no community or family to support me, emotionally, as a parent.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- giantg2 3y agoI'd guess that most of the middle class have not been on a recent vacation to Europe, if they ever have. Vacation is different than than permanently living there. In many ways there are more freedoms in the US, easier to own property, lower taxes, better economic outlook. Of course all of this depends on which county you're talking about since they are vastly different. Immigration requirements are often strictest in the best areas, and often exclude those who would most benefit from stronger social support systems.
- thrway63245 3y agoAgree with the "not been on vacation recently". Things have been gradually backsliding in the US, and when the change is gradual it's easier to miss. There will be a bunch of downvotes on this post, along with "then get outta here" replies, but really: just travel outside of the US and see for yourself. Also, there is a predominant culture in the US where everyone must always think it is the best country in the world at everything, and if you question this narrative in any area you are somehow a traitor. Shaking this off requires quite a shift in perspective. Lastly, the taxes thing is mostly false. Sit down and actually do the math. You will be likely be surprised. For one, California taxes are higher than in most of Canada (not Europe, but I have lived in both places). Do your own comparison and don't assume.
- shrimp_emoji 3y agoBut California income tax (14%) is three times what it is in ~95% of states (5%). Seems kind of cherry pickish to call California out specifically for this.
- giantg2 3y agoCan you show some metrics on that? Seems like any way you compare it, taxes are higher in other ODEC countries - effective individual rates, overall percent GDP, etc.
- remyp 3y agoI'm an American and moved from the US to Portugal a year ago, though I still spend a lot of time in the US. Here's what my biggest challenges have been: - Family and friends are now an 8 hour flight and 6 time zones away. Staying connected is difficult, particularly given American rat race schedules. I don't have children, so this is a challenge but manageable. - The visa -- among the easiest to get for Americans with no family ties to Europe -- took 5 months and TONS of paperwork. I had to lease an apartment for an entire year in order to APPLY for the visa. In total, it cost about $40k to get set up there. Most middle-class Americans don't have that laying around. - The language/culture barrier is real, even in a place with lots of English speakers. I'm diligent about attending lessons and studying, but it takes time. Learning the culture is even harder and I quite regularly make a fool of myself in public. - Above all, I've gained an appreciation for how optimized for convenience life in the US is. I dry my clothes outdoors on a line just like everyone else. This alone is a nonstarter for most Americans I know.
- p1esk 3y agoWhy did you move there?
- remyp 3y agoLots of reasons, in no particular order: - I've wanted to live in Europe for as long as I can remember. I can apply for a Portuguese passport after 5 years of residency, which unlocks the entire continent. - I'm from Chicago and can no longer handle the 6 months of no sun and debilitating seasonal depression during the winter. - I'm at the age where I'm no longer invincible health-wise and the US system is a comically expensive dumpster fire. The Portuguese health system has problems, but it is unlikely to literally bankrupt me like in the US. - The US has had (on average) multiple mass shootings _per day_ this year [0]. Portugal has had _one_ and is one of the safest countries on the planet. - Cost of living in Portugal (for an American) is low. This allows me to work less and live more. - I'm a guy and I've never fit in to the dominant American (particularly midwestern) macho culture. Expectations for men are different in Portugal and Europe in general, so I'm much more comfortable. - US politics. No further comment. [0] https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shootings-days-2023-database-shows/story?id=96609874 https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shootings-days-2023-database-...
- dazzkumar 3y agoIn my experience, Americans are often conditioned to believe that they are living in the best country in the world, and that all other countries are inferior and not safe. They were also kept busy by their system and most don't even have their passports.
- more_corn 3y agoThe not safe one is ironic given how staggeringly high gun deaths are in the us.
- sheepshear 3y agoI'd say impulsivity and asymmetric extra opportunity. A European can usefully learn English before knowing what they'll use it for, pounce on whatever opportunity arises in the more impulsive US economy, possibly multiple times in different places, make some extra money for some years, and then eventually return home to a lower cost of living. Going the other way requires more planning and more specific goals for no bigger a payoff than can be found domestically, which naturally filters out many people.
- ushercakes 3y ago- Perceptions matter. A lot of Americans think it's best here. Those that say how bad it is here, tend to not be the types that would be qualified for EU visas (i.e, you're not going to move to EU on a skilled worker visa if you're an unskilled, unhappy worker in the US) - Family matters. People leaving family usually emigrate for more money, and US -> EU isn't a more money situation most of the time. - It's not so easy to just emigrate. You need to be highly qualified or have ancestral ties. If you're highly qualified though, you can probably earn better money in the US. For the wealthy, US is subjectively "better". I think ultimately it's just a matter of opportunity. If people are generally comfortable with their life, why would they move? They will only do it if a fantastic 10/10 opportunity presents itself; there aren't many 10/10 obvious opportunities to emigrate to Europe for.
- TurkishPoptart 3y agoEurope is huge and diverse - where are you visiting? I suspect East/Central Europe and the Balkans could make for decent QoL for Americans, especially in regard to property prices (West Europe is getting priced out), but I'd like to know more.
- hulitu 3y ago> Ask HN: Why don't more middle-class Americans emigrate to Europe? Because: -the capital city is in Washington D.C. - in a case of a war, Europe will be sacrificed
- angmarsbane 3y agoIn my family it's already happening. I am one of three siblings all of us late 20s early 30s, grew up middle class in SoCal. My brother went to college in Germany because it was more affordable than attending a 4 year university in our home state. He's been in Germany now for eight years. He graduated, got a job, got married. He and his wife are never coming back. His POV is that the things he needs to live (healthcare, shelter) and the things he needs to work and have a family life (childcare, mat/pat leave, safe and timely transit to jobs, more job security) are affordable/attainable whereas those things are expensive and increasingly out of reach in the USA. He jokes that our TVs and material goods are cheaper, but you can't live in a TV. My sister and I have both weighed moving to Europe. The cut in paper salary vs. cost of living seems to be heavily in Europe's favor once you have 2-3 kids. When we get to that point, we may make the move too. We have an advantage that my sister and I received Italian citizenship through a great grandmother in 2020, and my brother received his Italian citizenship this year so moving and staying in Europe long-term will be simpler in that respect for us.
- bravetraveler 3y agoI never intended to grow old in the states, emigrating eventually, but as I near that benchmark... I grow skeptical. I have no idea where to start - fear the costs, bureaucracy, and so on. It surely depends on where you want to go... and changing your mind is likely incredibly prohibitive. Anyway, more probably don't do it because it's nebulous. Something to consider, too - six years ago I was upper-middle class, now I'm just hanging in there with inflation. External pressures put one in survival mode
- VirusNewbie 3y agoHow did you go from upper middle class to just hanging in there, considering it sounds like you're close to retirement? Lose all your money in a startup? Health issues? In my mind, upper middle class has substantial real estate, a plump 401k, and plenty of savings.
- bravetraveler 3y agoPerhaps my pride inflated the self-assessment :) I'm nowhere near that established but also relatively young (mid-30s). Retirement is a solid 20 years away or something, but I'd like to sort a lot of this out beforehand. My sole income is on the higher-than-average side, but not quite on the level of FAANG+benefits; around 170k. It's hard to say exactly, it may vary 10% with some share kickbacks. The cost of things has generally been a squeeze; renting, running costs, etc. It's likely overstated; I more went from lavish not-caring to now having to mind my footing. No change in income or expenditures aside from their cost :/ Inflation has outpaced every raise. The growth of my savings has slowed considerably... I'd like to make my first steps into real estate! Really just as a place to live, not as income. I really need to leave this city; my rent has nearly doubled.
- VirusNewbie 3y agoah, Ok, I see what you mean. Maybe not quite as dramatic of a fall as I was envisioning. Yes if you're renting, that once fat salary can seem just passable. I lucked out by buying when I did, and I was able to do well by renting out an extra room for a while until my income helped me be able to 'afford' the place I was in.
- agensaequivocum 3y agoBecause America is the best country in the world, at least in principal. We still have strong protections on speech, self-defense, homeschooling, and religion. We have actual and functional conservatives in the government and culture. The culture is still religious comparatively. I don't cannot foresee anything in my lifetime that would make me even consider leaving.
- flyingcasanova 3y agoA big factor is language. Only the UK is English speaking and it's extremely difficult to get a job if you don't know the native language. It'srare for a Dutch, Swedish, French, or Italian company to hire someone that doesn't speak the native language. All communications (written and verbal) will be in the native language.
- eande 3y agoNot answering the original question, but as often seen in these discussions a lot of the debate is revolving around QoL & cost of living comparison. QoL is hard to measure and subjective to individuals desires/needs/etc. When it comes to cost of living Ashton did a great job explaining in a detailed example how USA vs Germany on income/expenses/taxes/savings fare with all the short/long term implications. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJja2U7oCw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJja2U7oCw As someone who graduated in Germany long time ago, lived and worked in the last 24 years here in the USA/Silicon Valley and visited this summer Europe for 2 months it also made me realize how much my perspective has changed to the high QoL in Europe. I am torn if I should go back or not. For me easy it is an easy move to make, but a tough choice to decide on.