7 ms·

Chess grandmaster Hans Niemann denies using vibrating sex toy to cheat

47 points by RickJWagner 3y ago

Simulacra 3y ago
I never believed this for a moment, and I think the accusation was so disingenuous and in poor taste that it borders on obnoxiousness. Carlsen has an ego problem. To be fair, Neimann has been accused of cheating when he was a teenager, but based on the world champions behavior I'm willing to give Neimann the benefit of the doubt. Magnus got beat and he couldn't handle it.
- justrealist 3y ago
  Neimann openly admitted to cheating on chess.com matches (and chess.com released a lot of evidence to the same end). It's not a boogieman.
  - chippy 3y ago
    It gets complicated as Carlson has large monetary investment in chess.com https://www.chess.com/news/view/chesscom-acquires-pmg https://www.chess.com/news/view/chesscom-acquires-pmg It's not some independent platform or non profit. It muddys the water at least.
    - justrealist 3y ago
      > Niemann has admitted to cheating in online chess matches when he was 12 and 16 years old but has denied ever doing so in during tournaments involving prize money. Nobody made him say this! How is chess.com's ownership related? https://www.reuters.com/legal/carlsen-chesscom-make-opening-moves-niemann-cheating-claims-lawsuit-2022-12-02/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/carlsen-chesscom-make-opening-...
    - meepmorp 3y ago
      > It gets complicated as Carlson has large monetary investment in chess.com How does that complicate the fact that Niemann admitted cheating on games he played on chess.com?
  - kelipso 3y ago
    I'm willing to be there are a lot of other GMs who has cheated on chess.com but their identities haven't been revealed by chess.com because they weren't accused by Carlsen, a partial owner of chess.com.
- whatamidoingyo 3y ago
  > I think the accusation was so disingenuous and in poor taste It was literally a joke from Eric Hansen (Chessbrah). The media: "hey, anal beads, that's good. Let's run with it."
  - LeifCarrotson 3y ago
    Wasn't it originally from a random chatter in Eric's Twitch stream, not GM Hansen himself?
    - whatamidoingyo 3y ago
      Perhaps. I don't quite remember fully, but I was indeed watching that stream.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > Magnus got beat and he couldn't handle it. I've repeatedly seen Carlsen delighted when someone beats him. > To be fair, Neimann has been accused of cheating when he was a teenager Niemann has admitted to cheating when he was a teenager. And this wasn't in the distant mists of time, as this sort of phrasing implies. Niemann was still a teenager when Carlsen's accusation occurred. Now, I think it's likely he's cheated more than he's admitted to, but I don't know that it's likely that he's ever cheated OTB.
  - kelipso 3y ago
    The game Carlsen lost against Niemann was very different though. Basically Carlsen lost while playing in Carlsen's style of chess, which a a very different type of loss than some blunder loss or opening loss.
xnorswap 3y ago
The Daily Star really pulls it's weight. The original claim was just "cheating", it was the jokey British Tabloid press that made up the sex toy angle. The daily star isn't supposed to be taken seriously, but somehow it spread and took off a life of it's own.
- apetresc 3y ago
  It was Eric Hansen's (chessbrah) stream that made up the sex toy angle. Everyone else just riffed on that original joke.
- nathanaldensr 3y ago
  FYI: Possessive its.
  - rvbissell 3y ago
    I'll bet they know that. I know that. Getting it wrong is gonna happen, because (stated anecdotally/without proof) there is a phonetic component to typing muscle memory. In a casual written conversation, I'm not hammering out keys on my QWERTY keyboard thinking about spelling. I am mindful of spelling, it's just not the primary foreground process. IMO, of all the English misspellings to cringe over, this one is the easiest one to apply forbearance & focus on the message.
- eigenket 3y ago
  Yeah, for non-British people, this is the newspaper which ran headlines such as: * Freddie Starr Ate My Hamster * Freddie Starr DIDN'T eat my hamster * Freddie Starr dead - but did comedian really eat a hamster? They can be safely ignored.
  - joe__f 3y ago
    In my local Sainsbury's, the Guardian and the Independent are on the top row just above comfortable eye level. Staring you in the face is the Star, Sun and Daily Mail.
  - 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
peteradio 3y ago
Wasn't this an Always Sunny episode?
- darrenkopp 3y ago
  yes, it makes reference to this allegation.
LightHugger 3y ago
He's a confirmed cheater. We just don't know for sure that he cheated in that match in particular. I'm used to games where if someone is caught cheating they're just banned from competitive aspects of the activity going forward. giving them a chance to get better at hiding their cheating doesn't work for games like chess. He should just go to a different pursuit.
- slothtrop 3y ago
  I read the argument last that he would have needed "James Bond-level tech" to cheat against Magnus, but I'm skeptical.
  - civilitty 3y ago
    There’s a reason teledildonics are strictly controlled by ITAR export regulations. We must protect the integrity of global sports! Only our closest NATO allies are allowed access to our weaponized buttplugs.
  - chrisco255 3y ago
    So bluetooth, wifi, or 4g?
- gorkish 3y ago
  > He's a confirmed cheater. No; it's confirmed that he has cheated. If you believe that this is a quality of a person that cannot be changed or rehabilitated, that is fine, but you should take ownership of it and not attempt to represent it as a fact.
  - Ifigureitsme 3y ago
    I think it's more about protecting ourselves. I believe people have the capacity to change but I weigh that against the FACT that there will be people who don't. 20 cheaters (of which 19 would have changed their ways) not getting to compete is preferable to the damage that 1 cheater would inflict.
bmh 3y ago
Haha. I first read that headline as "Hans Niemann dies using vibrating sex toy"
- linsomniac 3y ago
  "It took our doctors two hours just to get the smile off his face."
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  Me too. What a way to go.
Scarblac 3y ago
The whole vibrating sex toy thing was a joke in a single comment by some random person in Twitch chat. Amazing how it blew up and spread over the globe.
ChicagoBoy11 3y ago
This has gotten so ridiculous to the point that I actually feel bad for Neimann. He has admitted to cheating, there's no debate about that. But he maintains that he has cheated in two isolated incidents, at age 12 and 16. These are mistakes, and given he is a titled player, very serious mistakes. But, beyond barring him from chess.com (a platform with whom his chief accuser has significant business ties), they've absolutely dragged his reputation through the mud many times over. All of this, it seems, based on a "feeling" that Magnus had OTB on a particular game (for which no evidence of cheating has been found). It wreaks of witchhunt, and has damaged his reputation in a likely unrepairable fashion. I understand he's made mistakes, but it seems we've all tacitly agreed that it is ok to drag someone through the mud because he seems a bit obnoxious and made mistakes while a child. I hope we'd be better than that.
- ethanbond 3y ago
  That’s the thing about trust, ain’t it
  - maze-le 3y ago
    We all did mistakes when we were teenagers, its part of the process. It takes courage to admit that. Whats the lesson to be learned here? Never be honest in the public ever again?
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      "Never be honest in the public ever again?" Yes and demand for right to be forgotten to maintain the facade /s
- otherfiftycents 3y ago
  chess.com should release the cheating probabilities of every titled player who has ever registered and verified on chess.com . That would be the only fair thing to do. It should be in fact updated dynamically and visible on a player's profile at all times.
mellosouls 3y ago
This is a real lame story for the BBC, and hypocritical of them to be using a Piers Morgan "scoop" as the basis. Nobody takes the original joke seriously as a suggestion and this whole story was recently resolved with a truce after the regrettable bullying of him (for past transgressions) by Carlsen, Nakamura and others. That resolution is newsworthy, this rubbish isn't.
spuz 3y ago
It's really gross that the BBC are taking the shamelessly crass question by Piers Morgan during his interview and running it in their headline. It's a classic case of "damned if you, damned if you don't" for Niemann. No one has ever seriously believed this accusation, but this is the first time he's been asked the question point blank and so he had to give an answer. I don't expect any less from Piers Morgan, but we should leave the shameless style of interview question to his corner of journalism and not promote it.
- strunz 3y ago
  He also specifically asked if he used "anal beads", which are a specific thing, so even if he did use a different sex toy to cheat, he could've answered that honestly.
mcpackieh 3y ago
The chess community is entirely too forgiving. This entire affair should have been over and done with as soon as Niemann admitted to cheating at 16 for profit in prize matches. Chess orgs/competitions should ban him for life and move on, it's not like there's some shortage of other people to play chess with.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
cmcaleer 3y ago
The reaction of top level players in many cases has been so pathetic. Mostly notably Kramnik who released this[0] baffling video wherein he tortures every single datapoint that he think might support his argument that Niemann is cheating and ignoring the possibility that he's not and ignoring that the entire game was streamed, which would have explained some of the 'weirdness' he saw. At this point Hans has played tons of tournaments - the kind that other top GMs avoid (hence Niemann is v often top/near top seed) because playing these oftentimes v underrated 2400s is risky - under severe scrutiny, has had his rating peak during this no doubt incredibly stressful period of scrutiny (as seen imo by his behaviour and personality shift to cope with it), and is clearly a high-level GM who doesn't use assistance. Sure, there's THAT[1] interview at SLCC after the Magnus incident where he gives pretty terrible analysis (under a lot of stress, in the public eye, before he has experience with public speaking), but if having an embarrassing analysis when Stockfish is turned off makes you a cheater then Kram is a spinbot[2]. Speaking of spinbots, I think it's worth bringing up CSGO, what some people regard as an infamously toxic game, where cheaters ruin games. But even despite that, the best CSGO player of all time, s1mple, got banned for cheating when he was a teenager in 1.6 and a community of young, heated players can accept that this happens with young players. Professional CSGO has a pseudo-official system for pick-up games among pro-level players. Occasionally, unknown players can get promoted into this league. A new Estonian player got promoted into it, got accused of cheating, was frequently destroying top level opponents with unconventional plays such that it was 'obvious' that he was cheating, publicly complaining and making accusations on stream[3]. League admins, rather than placating the established professionals who have a vested interest in striking down upcoming talent, instead chose to fly him to their offices where he'd play on a PC set up by the league, under the watch of league staff. Lo-and-behold he was that good, much to the amazement of sceptics (some contemporary reactions caught in this thread[4]). Accusers had no leg to stand on - what more could they want? Apologies soon ensued[5]. That player was ropz, who today 6 years on has been consistently a top 20 overall player for the duration of his career, and currently at over $1MM of prize money earned[6]. Hans deserved a similar opportunity at the time. He offered to play naked. He wanted to prove himself. He had the game of his career that should have been the happiest moment of his life, instead it turned in to a brutal trial-by-social-media wherein everything he did or said was brutally analyzed and top level creators with massive audiences opined with vague accusations. The world was fixated on a dumb (but funny) rumour on whether this 19 year old's crowning achievement was achieved with a vibrating sex toy up his own ass or not. Organisers chose not to invite Hans to placate Magnus and other top players, hence his last year in random tournaments. I don't know whether Niemann cheated vs Magnus or not, but I think there's more than enough reasonable doubt that he didn't cheat. And if he didn't cheat, and this is what he has had to go through - public humilation from his former idols, international attention focused on his sphincter, constantly speculated about by people seeking to profit off the controversy - it's such a sad story and an absolute tragedy. I hope there's never another case like Niemann again. _ [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYgUp9AGo5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYgUp9AGo5k [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXO-mIk4w5Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXO-mIk4w5Q [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGOqFVNfhhY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGOqFVNfhhY [3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H08x9MfsY_w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H08x9MfsY_w [4]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/62lyvf/ropz_is_gonna_play_fpl_from_the_faceit_hq_this/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/62lyvf/rop... [5]: https://twitter.com/JW1/status/955624592944631809 https://twitter.com/JW1/status/955624592944631809 Same player in the above clip [6]: https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/31594-ropz-robin-kool https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/31594-ropz-robin-koo...
bigtex 3y ago
Am I the only one who read denies as dies...
sacnoradhq 3y ago
This story is stupid. Meanwhile, the BBC covered-up the late Jimmy Saville's rape of disabled children for decades.
romanshrompsky 3y ago
Wasn't this the basis of one of the latest It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia episode?

47 points by RickJWagner 3y ago

I never believed this for a moment, and I think the accusation was so disingenuous and in poor taste that it borders on obnoxiousness. Carlsen has an ego problem. To be fair, Neimann has been accused of cheating when he was a teenager, but based on the world champions behavior I'm willing to give Neimann the benefit of the doubt. Magnus got beat and he couldn't handle it.

justrealist 3y ago
Neimann openly admitted to cheating on chess.com matches (and chess.com released a lot of evidence to the same end). It's not a boogieman.
- chippy 3y ago
  It gets complicated as Carlson has large monetary investment in chess.com https://www.chess.com/news/view/chesscom-acquires-pmg https://www.chess.com/news/view/chesscom-acquires-pmg It's not some independent platform or non profit. It muddys the water at least.
  - justrealist 3y ago
    > Niemann has admitted to cheating in online chess matches when he was 12 and 16 years old but has denied ever doing so in during tournaments involving prize money. Nobody made him say this! How is chess.com's ownership related? https://www.reuters.com/legal/carlsen-chesscom-make-opening-moves-niemann-cheating-claims-lawsuit-2022-12-02/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/carlsen-chesscom-make-opening-...
  - meepmorp 3y ago
    > It gets complicated as Carlson has large monetary investment in chess.com How does that complicate the fact that Niemann admitted cheating on games he played on chess.com?
- kelipso 3y ago
  I'm willing to be there are a lot of other GMs who has cheated on chess.com but their identities haven't been revealed by chess.com because they weren't accused by Carlsen, a partial owner of chess.com.
whatamidoingyo 3y ago
> I think the accusation was so disingenuous and in poor taste It was literally a joke from Eric Hansen (Chessbrah). The media: "hey, anal beads, that's good. Let's run with it."
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  Wasn't it originally from a random chatter in Eric's Twitch stream, not GM Hansen himself?
  - whatamidoingyo 3y ago
    Perhaps. I don't quite remember fully, but I was indeed watching that stream.
robertlagrant 3y ago
> Magnus got beat and he couldn't handle it. I've repeatedly seen Carlsen delighted when someone beats him. > To be fair, Neimann has been accused of cheating when he was a teenager Niemann has admitted to cheating when he was a teenager. And this wasn't in the distant mists of time, as this sort of phrasing implies. Niemann was still a teenager when Carlsen's accusation occurred. Now, I think it's likely he's cheated more than he's admitted to, but I don't know that it's likely that he's ever cheated OTB.
- kelipso 3y ago
  The game Carlsen lost against Niemann was very different though. Basically Carlsen lost while playing in Carlsen's style of chess, which a a very different type of loss than some blunder loss or opening loss.

xnorswap 3y ago

The Daily Star really pulls it's weight. The original claim was just "cheating", it was the jokey British Tabloid press that made up the sex toy angle. The daily star isn't supposed to be taken seriously, but somehow it spread and took off a life of it's own.

apetresc 3y ago
It was Eric Hansen's (chessbrah) stream that made up the sex toy angle. Everyone else just riffed on that original joke.
nathanaldensr 3y ago
FYI: Possessive its.
- rvbissell 3y ago
  I'll bet they know that. I know that. Getting it wrong is gonna happen, because (stated anecdotally/without proof) there is a phonetic component to typing muscle memory. In a casual written conversation, I'm not hammering out keys on my QWERTY keyboard thinking about spelling. I am mindful of spelling, it's just not the primary foreground process. IMO, of all the English misspellings to cringe over, this one is the easiest one to apply forbearance & focus on the message.
eigenket 3y ago
Yeah, for non-British people, this is the newspaper which ran headlines such as: * Freddie Starr Ate My Hamster * Freddie Starr DIDN'T eat my hamster * Freddie Starr dead - but did comedian really eat a hamster? They can be safely ignored.
- joe__f 3y ago
  In my local Sainsbury's, the Guardian and the Independent are on the top row just above comfortable eye level. Staring you in the face is the Star, Sun and Daily Mail.
- 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

peteradio 3y ago

Wasn't this an Always Sunny episode?

darrenkopp 3y ago
yes, it makes reference to this allegation.

LightHugger 3y ago

He's a confirmed cheater. We just don't know for sure that he cheated in that match in particular. I'm used to games where if someone is caught cheating they're just banned from competitive aspects of the activity going forward. giving them a chance to get better at hiding their cheating doesn't work for games like chess. He should just go to a different pursuit.

slothtrop 3y ago
I read the argument last that he would have needed "James Bond-level tech" to cheat against Magnus, but I'm skeptical.
- civilitty 3y ago
  There’s a reason teledildonics are strictly controlled by ITAR export regulations. We must protect the integrity of global sports! Only our closest NATO allies are allowed access to our weaponized buttplugs.
- chrisco255 3y ago
  So bluetooth, wifi, or 4g?
gorkish 3y ago
> He's a confirmed cheater. No; it's confirmed that he has cheated. If you believe that this is a quality of a person that cannot be changed or rehabilitated, that is fine, but you should take ownership of it and not attempt to represent it as a fact.
- Ifigureitsme 3y ago
  I think it's more about protecting ourselves. I believe people have the capacity to change but I weigh that against the FACT that there will be people who don't. 20 cheaters (of which 19 would have changed their ways) not getting to compete is preferable to the damage that 1 cheater would inflict.

bmh 3y ago

Haha. I first read that headline as "Hans Niemann dies using vibrating sex toy"

linsomniac 3y ago
"It took our doctors two hours just to get the smile off his face."
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
Me too. What a way to go.

Scarblac 3y ago

The whole vibrating sex toy thing was a joke in a single comment by some random person in Twitch chat. Amazing how it blew up and spread over the globe.

ChicagoBoy11 3y ago

This has gotten so ridiculous to the point that I actually feel bad for Neimann. He has admitted to cheating, there's no debate about that. But he maintains that he has cheated in two isolated incidents, at age 12 and 16. These are mistakes, and given he is a titled player, very serious mistakes. But, beyond barring him from chess.com (a platform with whom his chief accuser has significant business ties), they've absolutely dragged his reputation through the mud many times over. All of this, it seems, based on a "feeling" that Magnus had OTB on a particular game (for which no evidence of cheating has been found). It wreaks of witchhunt, and has damaged his reputation in a likely unrepairable fashion. I understand he's made mistakes, but it seems we've all tacitly agreed that it is ok to drag someone through the mud because he seems a bit obnoxious and made mistakes while a child. I hope we'd be better than that.

ethanbond 3y ago
That’s the thing about trust, ain’t it
- maze-le 3y ago
  We all did mistakes when we were teenagers, its part of the process. It takes courage to admit that. Whats the lesson to be learned here? Never be honest in the public ever again?
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    "Never be honest in the public ever again?" Yes and demand for right to be forgotten to maintain the facade /s
otherfiftycents 3y ago
chess.com should release the cheating probabilities of every titled player who has ever registered and verified on chess.com . That would be the only fair thing to do. It should be in fact updated dynamically and visible on a player's profile at all times.

mellosouls 3y ago

This is a real lame story for the BBC, and hypocritical of them to be using a Piers Morgan "scoop" as the basis. Nobody takes the original joke seriously as a suggestion and this whole story was recently resolved with a truce after the regrettable bullying of him (for past transgressions) by Carlsen, Nakamura and others. That resolution is newsworthy, this rubbish isn't.

spuz 3y ago

It's really gross that the BBC are taking the shamelessly crass question by Piers Morgan during his interview and running it in their headline. It's a classic case of "damned if you, damned if you don't" for Niemann. No one has ever seriously believed this accusation, but this is the first time he's been asked the question point blank and so he had to give an answer. I don't expect any less from Piers Morgan, but we should leave the shameless style of interview question to his corner of journalism and not promote it.

strunz 3y ago
He also specifically asked if he used "anal beads", which are a specific thing, so even if he did use a different sex toy to cheat, he could've answered that honestly.

mcpackieh 3y ago

The chess community is entirely too forgiving. This entire affair should have been over and done with as soon as Niemann admitted to cheating at 16 for profit in prize matches. Chess orgs/competitions should ban him for life and move on, it's not like there's some shortage of other people to play chess with.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

cmcaleer 3y ago

The reaction of top level players in many cases has been so pathetic. Mostly notably Kramnik who released this[0] baffling video wherein he tortures every single datapoint that he think might support his argument that Niemann is cheating and ignoring the possibility that he's not and ignoring that the entire game was streamed, which would have explained some of the 'weirdness' he saw. At this point Hans has played tons of tournaments - the kind that other top GMs avoid (hence Niemann is v often top/near top seed) because playing these oftentimes v underrated 2400s is risky - under severe scrutiny, has had his rating peak during this no doubt incredibly stressful period of scrutiny (as seen imo by his behaviour and personality shift to cope with it), and is clearly a high-level GM who doesn't use assistance. Sure, there's THAT[1] interview at SLCC after the Magnus incident where he gives pretty terrible analysis (under a lot of stress, in the public eye, before he has experience with public speaking), but if having an embarrassing analysis when Stockfish is turned off makes you a cheater then Kram is a spinbot[2]. Speaking of spinbots, I think it's worth bringing up CSGO, what some people regard as an infamously toxic game, where cheaters ruin games. But even despite that, the best CSGO player of all time, s1mple, got banned for cheating when he was a teenager in 1.6 and a community of young, heated players can accept that this happens with young players. Professional CSGO has a pseudo-official system for pick-up games among pro-level players. Occasionally, unknown players can get promoted into this league. A new Estonian player got promoted into it, got accused of cheating, was frequently destroying top level opponents with unconventional plays such that it was 'obvious' that he was cheating, publicly complaining and making accusations on stream[3]. League admins, rather than placating the established professionals who have a vested interest in striking down upcoming talent, instead chose to fly him to their offices where he'd play on a PC set up by the league, under the watch of league staff. Lo-and-behold he was that good, much to the amazement of sceptics (some contemporary reactions caught in this thread[4]). Accusers had no leg to stand on - what more could they want? Apologies soon ensued[5]. That player was ropz, who today 6 years on has been consistently a top 20 overall player for the duration of his career, and currently at over $1MM of prize money earned[6]. Hans deserved a similar opportunity at the time. He offered to play naked. He wanted to prove himself. He had the game of his career that should have been the happiest moment of his life, instead it turned in to a brutal trial-by-social-media wherein everything he did or said was brutally analyzed and top level creators with massive audiences opined with vague accusations. The world was fixated on a dumb (but funny) rumour on whether this 19 year old's crowning achievement was achieved with a vibrating sex toy up his own ass or not. Organisers chose not to invite Hans to placate Magnus and other top players, hence his last year in random tournaments. I don't know whether Niemann cheated vs Magnus or not, but I think there's more than enough reasonable doubt that he didn't cheat. And if he didn't cheat, and this is what he has had to go through - public humilation from his former idols, international attention focused on his sphincter, constantly speculated about by people seeking to profit off the controversy - it's such a sad story and an absolute tragedy. I hope there's never another case like Niemann again. _ [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYgUp9AGo5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYgUp9AGo5k [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXO-mIk4w5Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXO-mIk4w5Q [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGOqFVNfhhY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGOqFVNfhhY [3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H08x9MfsY_w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H08x9MfsY_w [4]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/62lyvf/ropz_is_gonna_play_fpl_from_the_faceit_hq_this/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/62lyvf/rop... [5]: https://twitter.com/JW1/status/955624592944631809 https://twitter.com/JW1/status/955624592944631809 Same player in the above clip [6]: https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/31594-ropz-robin-kool https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/31594-ropz-robin-koo...

bigtex 3y ago

Am I the only one who read denies as dies...

sacnoradhq 3y ago

This story is stupid. Meanwhile, the BBC covered-up the late Jimmy Saville's rape of disabled children for decades.

romanshrompsky 3y ago

Wasn't this the basis of one of the latest It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia episode?