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This kind of makes me wonder why you'd have a Mac at all (I'm sure there are use cases). Wouldn't a Linux device, or Linux running on a Mac suit you better? F

This kind of makes me wonder why you'd have a Mac at all (I'm sure there are use cases). Wouldn't a Linux device, or Linux running on a Mac suit you better? For me, the security picture is one of the main features of the eco-system even if it's very restrictive - disabling SIP undermines it more or less completely.

jraph 3y ago
I would think most people choose macOS over Linux for the familiarity with the UI/UX and software availability (Adobe and MS stuff). I would expect a very small number people making this choice over security concerns.
- szundi 3y ago
  Windows is constantly forces people with popups to makes scary security decisions and if they press no, the world stops working
walthamstow 3y ago
I'm not your parent post but surely the easy answer to why use a mac at all is simply how great the hardware is. The 2020 M1 Air is nearly 3 years old and still a brilliant machine.
rafaelmn 3y ago
>Wouldn't a Linux device, or Linux running on a Mac suit you better? Maybe they want a unixy desktop with working sound ? Half joking, but that's my use case - homebrew is pretty great, most developers use a Mac in my domains of interest so it's always supported. Linux is just too much work (and I'm using Fedora on my desktop). SIP is just false positives and annoyance. I'm on the fence about M/ARM switch since I still see a lot of friction with containers so I might be looking at framework for my next device. Or just go all in on client/server development model.
- devsda 3y ago
  > Maybe they want a unixy desktop with working sound ? In my experience, this has not been an issue for the past 10-15 years atleast. Before that there were some problems with few (external) soundcards or random cpu spikes with the mixers. However, the UX can still improve. Switching audio outputs with multiple outputs like external displays etc is not very smooth or intuitive. Some bluetooth headsets have issues but I've had those with a mac as well.
  - unsupp0rted 3y ago
    There's only a 1% chance these days on Linux that your sound won't work or your computer won't sleep when you close the lid or your wifi won't work, or your ethernet, or your cooling, or a peripheral, or CPU/memory spikes. And a 90% chance it'll be at least one such thing.
    - zitsarethecure 3y ago
      All of those things work fine on every computer in my household that runs Linux. This spans thinkpad, dell and ASUS laptops, Dell desktops, home-built gamer type desktops, a few raspberry pi's, and a SFF PC we use to run Kodi on the main TV. I do find it amusing in a thread about how you have to turn off a core security feature to be able to use containers properly on a Mac that the discussion immediately turns to how bad Linux sound drivers supposedly are. Honestly, I went in the other direction (Mac to Linux) and I've found the waters to be just fine. I don't know if I just have the magic touch or something, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
      - rafaelmn 3y ago
        Haha now that you mention it touch (trackpad) absolutely sucks on Linux when I last tried it - I couldn't even get palm rejection to work. But this isn't bashing on linux desktop (I would use it if Mac wasn't an option) as much as giving a reason why people would use MacOS despite being annoyed by SIP.
      - songshu 3y ago
pard68 3y ago
Work gives me a laptop, I use it. I'd prefer Linux, but that's not what I get.
da39a3ee 3y ago
No, the hardware drivers are very polished and never give any problems. And the hardware itself is beautiful but I suspect wouldn't integrate as well with the OS if it were running Linux.
jppittma 3y ago
SIP on consumer laptops/desktops is security theater. It only really makes sense on web-servers. For people for whom this is a deal breaker, can you describe a concrete scenario where SIP would actually protect you?
- saagarjha 3y ago
  SIP protects you from an app accidentally rendering your system unbootable, for example.
tannhaeuser 3y ago
> Wouldn't a Linux device, or Linux running on a Mac suit you better? No? Maybe you're preferring Mac OS for getting stuff done, exchange work with the outside world and/or use non-historic software (like any commercial desktop app such as idk Photoshop, Sketch, Audio, 3D, CAD s/w, etc., etc.) and still are a developer? Or even doing something esoteric such as using office software without wanting to throw your notebook out of the window?
rawbot 3y ago
Only way to properly develop iOS apps, I'm afraid. Connecting to a Mac Agent with Visual Studio on Windows gave me nothing but headaches.
satvikpendem 3y ago
The hardware is what's good in Macs, with Apple Silicon, not the software, which I use begrudgingly.
perryizgr8 3y ago
> why you'd have a Mac at all My work provides it. Everyone else uses it and I don't want to be the one with a different setup.
kortex 3y ago
In my opinion, MacOS is just a nicer experience on the whole than (Ubuntu or Red Hat) Linux (I have limited experience with other distros, but they are all pretty comparable to the big distros at best. I only ever really had one goofy driver/deep OS bug in Mac - something with the location daemon would cause the wireless internet connection to cut out repeatedly. That bug was left behind with that machine when I left that company, and didn't appear in my next macbook pro. Linux is just always a struggle with drivers, subtle bugs, and other misc friction. It's not a dealbreaker - ubuntu 22.04 is still my daily driver, but it's very much enough that I would prefer a mac for most development. For example, if I run a software update, it quietly breaks the fn keys to change screen brightness, and when the machine wakes from sleep, the screen stays black. I figured out after much trial that running ubuntu-drivers fixes it, but it's a pain. I'd rather just turn off auto-updates. Also the Command key for keyboard shortcuts is brilliant and just works across the whole system. On linux I have to use ctrl-shift to copy/paste and I haven't found a good workaround yet.
TheHappyOddish 3y ago
I ran desktop Linux (Manjaro) for years in an enterprise job with certified hardware, as a Linux sysadmin. I regularly had issues and spent 5-10% of my time troubleshooting the OS or a janky application. Conversely, macOS is broadly 'production grade'. It mostly 'just works' (with a number of tweaks - including SIP -, hacks etc on initial config, most power users automate with dotfiles). It has a drastically better UI, first class terminals and unixy support, and most code built for it has a higher level of shine. I am confident enough to deploy alternate security implementations for the convenience of full FS control, as I know many power users are. Disabling SIP is a bad idea for those who don't understand it, the same as disabling Windows Defender or forwarding NAT on your router.

jraph 3y ago

I would think most people choose macOS over Linux for the familiarity with the UI/UX and software availability (Adobe and MS stuff). I would expect a very small number people making this choice over security concerns.

szundi 3y ago
Windows is constantly forces people with popups to makes scary security decisions and if they press no, the world stops working

walthamstow 3y ago

I'm not your parent post but surely the easy answer to why use a mac at all is simply how great the hardware is. The 2020 M1 Air is nearly 3 years old and still a brilliant machine.

rafaelmn 3y ago

>Wouldn't a Linux device, or Linux running on a Mac suit you better? Maybe they want a unixy desktop with working sound ? Half joking, but that's my use case - homebrew is pretty great, most developers use a Mac in my domains of interest so it's always supported. Linux is just too much work (and I'm using Fedora on my desktop). SIP is just false positives and annoyance. I'm on the fence about M/ARM switch since I still see a lot of friction with containers so I might be looking at framework for my next device. Or just go all in on client/server development model.

devsda 3y ago
> Maybe they want a unixy desktop with working sound ? In my experience, this has not been an issue for the past 10-15 years atleast. Before that there were some problems with few (external) soundcards or random cpu spikes with the mixers. However, the UX can still improve. Switching audio outputs with multiple outputs like external displays etc is not very smooth or intuitive. Some bluetooth headsets have issues but I've had those with a mac as well.
- unsupp0rted 3y ago
  There's only a 1% chance these days on Linux that your sound won't work or your computer won't sleep when you close the lid or your wifi won't work, or your ethernet, or your cooling, or a peripheral, or CPU/memory spikes. And a 90% chance it'll be at least one such thing.
  - zitsarethecure 3y ago
    All of those things work fine on every computer in my household that runs Linux. This spans thinkpad, dell and ASUS laptops, Dell desktops, home-built gamer type desktops, a few raspberry pi's, and a SFF PC we use to run Kodi on the main TV. I do find it amusing in a thread about how you have to turn off a core security feature to be able to use containers properly on a Mac that the discussion immediately turns to how bad Linux sound drivers supposedly are. Honestly, I went in the other direction (Mac to Linux) and I've found the waters to be just fine. I don't know if I just have the magic touch or something, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
    - rafaelmn 3y ago
      Haha now that you mention it touch (trackpad) absolutely sucks on Linux when I last tried it - I couldn't even get palm rejection to work. But this isn't bashing on linux desktop (I would use it if Mac wasn't an option) as much as giving a reason why people would use MacOS despite being annoyed by SIP.
    - songshu 3y ago

pard68 3y ago

Work gives me a laptop, I use it. I'd prefer Linux, but that's not what I get.

da39a3ee 3y ago

No, the hardware drivers are very polished and never give any problems. And the hardware itself is beautiful but I suspect wouldn't integrate as well with the OS if it were running Linux.

jppittma 3y ago

SIP on consumer laptops/desktops is security theater. It only really makes sense on web-servers. For people for whom this is a deal breaker, can you describe a concrete scenario where SIP would actually protect you?

saagarjha 3y ago
SIP protects you from an app accidentally rendering your system unbootable, for example.

tannhaeuser 3y ago

> Wouldn't a Linux device, or Linux running on a Mac suit you better? No? Maybe you're preferring Mac OS for getting stuff done, exchange work with the outside world and/or use non-historic software (like any commercial desktop app such as idk Photoshop, Sketch, Audio, 3D, CAD s/w, etc., etc.) and still are a developer? Or even doing something esoteric such as using office software without wanting to throw your notebook out of the window?

rawbot 3y ago

Only way to properly develop iOS apps, I'm afraid. Connecting to a Mac Agent with Visual Studio on Windows gave me nothing but headaches.

satvikpendem 3y ago

The hardware is what's good in Macs, with Apple Silicon, not the software, which I use begrudgingly.

perryizgr8 3y ago

> why you'd have a Mac at all My work provides it. Everyone else uses it and I don't want to be the one with a different setup.

kortex 3y ago

In my opinion, MacOS is just a nicer experience on the whole than (Ubuntu or Red Hat) Linux (I have limited experience with other distros, but they are all pretty comparable to the big distros at best. I only ever really had one goofy driver/deep OS bug in Mac - something with the location daemon would cause the wireless internet connection to cut out repeatedly. That bug was left behind with that machine when I left that company, and didn't appear in my next macbook pro. Linux is just always a struggle with drivers, subtle bugs, and other misc friction. It's not a dealbreaker - ubuntu 22.04 is still my daily driver, but it's very much enough that I would prefer a mac for most development. For example, if I run a software update, it quietly breaks the fn keys to change screen brightness, and when the machine wakes from sleep, the screen stays black. I figured out after much trial that running ubuntu-drivers fixes it, but it's a pain. I'd rather just turn off auto-updates. Also the Command key for keyboard shortcuts is brilliant and just works across the whole system. On linux I have to use ctrl-shift to copy/paste and I haven't found a good workaround yet.

TheHappyOddish 3y ago

I ran desktop Linux (Manjaro) for years in an enterprise job with certified hardware, as a Linux sysadmin. I regularly had issues and spent 5-10% of my time troubleshooting the OS or a janky application. Conversely, macOS is broadly 'production grade'. It mostly 'just works' (with a number of tweaks - including SIP -, hacks etc on initial config, most power users automate with dotfiles). It has a drastically better UI, first class terminals and unixy support, and most code built for it has a higher level of shine. I am confident enough to deploy alternate security implementations for the convenience of full FS control, as I know many power users are. Disabling SIP is a bad idea for those who don't understand it, the same as disabling Windows Defender or forwarding NAT on your router.