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DJI is fully compliant with China's policy of civil-military fusion. Anyone flying anywhere sensitive should not use them. They're beaming back home whatever th

DJI is fully compliant with China's policy of civil-military fusion. Anyone flying anywhere sensitive should not use them. They're beaming back home whatever they want, and China is using both tech and data to give an asymmetric advantage to allies like Russia in the Ukraine war.

snypher 3y ago
>They're beaming back home whatever they want This claim is always thrown out like a life preserver without ever anything to back it up. Do you have anything to support this claim?
- foota 3y ago
  They're cloud based, aren't they? So regardless of what they're doing with the data, it's true that they're (figuratively) beaming it back, although parent is admittedly implying more. I accept that chinese authorities generally have access to anything they want to in the country, so I would buy that they have access to drone data.
  - hackernewds 3y ago
    with how they are executing tick tock and making a mockery out of the USDS system, I would not put this past them at all
  - lm28469 3y ago
    > I accept that chinese authorities generally have access to anything they want to in the country So just like the US ?
    - localplume 3y ago
      nope. the US doesn't have the same military-civilian fusion that China has, given the latter is an authoritarian one party state.
  - guax 3y ago
    They're not cloud based as far as I would define it. I have one and fly mostly on areas where there is no internet signal. The drone beams back video to your phone and unless you're syncing the cache videos with their cloud nothing its stored other than flight meta data. You can avoid even that by using a totally offline controller/phone.
    - foota 3y ago
      How does the drone communicate with the phone?
      - TheHappyOddish 3y ago
        Via the remote over RF.
- kortilla 3y ago
  Does the app function without an encrypted connection to DJI controlled servers? If so, then there is nothing else needed. People forget how sketchy closed source software is.
  - trailbits 3y ago
    You can turn off all the phone radios or you can block all network traffic and the app still works fine. You only need a connection to get an unlock code in certain airspace.
- rmbyrro 3y ago
  Given the history of China and its tech companies, the burden of proof shifted to their shoulders. So, I turn to them: is there anything that proves its a surveillance-free device? No, they cannot assure that. Someone may not like it, but China now has a very, very bad reputation among people in the West. Especially after the last pandemic and how they handled it.
  - palata 3y ago
    > So, I turn to them: is there anything that proves its a surveillance-free device? No, they cannot assure that. Can Google and Apple prove that their stuff is surveillance-free, though?
    - WitCanStain 3y ago
      No, because it isn't.
    - rmbyrro 3y ago
      No, but US reputation is way better than China's. In the absence of a surveillance-free device, people prefer the one with the better rep.
      - mardifoufs 3y ago
        >us reputation is way better Where? Maybe in the west, certainly not in the rest of the world. China didn't start a war that killed 1million people not even 20 years ago. Westerners don't care about that but that's to be expected.
        rmbyrro 3y ago
        You are right, Chinese govt didn't kill only 1 million. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine The US military complex is beyond dirty and its grip on govt power makes everyone sick in the West and the East. But reducing the US to that and then doing a comparison with the Chinese government and ideology is unfair, in my opinion.
- okdood64 3y ago
  While I myself still wouldn't ever use DJI because of this reason, no can ever provide any concrete claim. Quite hilarious.
  - corbezzoli 3y ago
    What concrete claim are you looking for? Is it not enough that Huawei was banned by the US? Do you know the reason why it was banned? The same reason could broadly apply to every Chinese company. TikTok is the software counterpart that isn’t allowed on any government phone. DJI does not produce infrastructure pieces so it hasn’t reached the same urgency to the US, so it’s still allowed.
    - hackernewds 3y ago
      at this point then NULL hypothesis should be that China is using consumer grades products to spy on its perceived enemies including the USA.
      - palata 3y ago
        Since Snowden it's pretty clear that the USA is spying on even its citizen. I don't see how it would be surprising that China does something similar.
    - palata 3y ago
      > Do you know the reason why it was banned? For the infrastructure, for legit strategic reasons (without even considering they are abusing it, you generally don't want to rely on foreign infrastructure on your territory). For the smartphones, that's pure commercial war. Huawei was a big competitor.
      - corbezzoli 3y ago
        > For the smartphones, that's pure commercial war. Huawei was a big competitor. Big competitor of what? There’s no popular Android phone OEM in the US. Sounds like you’re making stuff up.
firen777 3y ago
How do Ukrainian operators avoid exposing their own positions? Do they install custom firmware on their drone?
- dilyevsky 3y ago
  Yes they root the device and set operator coordinates to 0,0 so they are not picked up by aeroscope, etc
  - ramraj07 3y ago
    Its not impossible that DJI could have failsafe phone home systems in there that'll still send info back home after rooting. My guess is that the products they produced before the Ukraine war were more naive and now that they've learnt consumer drones will be used in warzones no matter what, I'll bet they have started incorporating such failsafes. Imagine being able to know where every mavic in the frontlines are and selling that info to the Russians.
- guax 3y ago
  You can operate the drones without a connected device. Operator location is done by locating the radio source. It would be better to have repeaters and cable transmitter to them to avoid direct strike. Tech people are usually paranoid by the most unlikely scenarios. A soldier with an antenna can pinpoint the operator location much easier than trying to get this kind of info from china without leaks.
- brindlejim 3y ago
  jailbreaks.
WendyTheWillow 3y ago
Good luck using my backyard data to fight in Ukraine…
severus_snape 3y ago
Both fronts use DJI drones[0][1], although DJI suspended its activities in both Russia and Ukraine as of April 26, 2022[2] and contractually forbids[3] any sales by dealers to either country and for combat use. However, other actors are entering the war business, like Parrot[4]. [0]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NtgseODXGSAomx6G5Efwz4XY6AuYF9ZjGSGiCxvNHXE/edit#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NtgseODXGSAomx6G5Efw... [1]: https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/16/ukraine-russia-war-drone-warfare-china/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/16/ukraine-russia-war-dron... [2]: https://www.dji.com/uk/newsroom/news/dji-statement-on-sales-compliance-efforts https://www.dji.com/uk/newsroom/news/dji-statement-on-sales-... [3]: https://www.dji.com/newsroom/news/dji-statement-on-dji-relationship-with-aeromotus https://www.dji.com/newsroom/news/dji-statement-on-dji-relat... [4]: https://www.lesechos.fr/weekend/high-tech-auto/henry-seydoux-ecrit-lavenir-des-drones-parrot-dans-le-ciel-ukrainien-1973701 https://www.lesechos.fr/weekend/high-tech-auto/henry-seydoux...
- stef25 3y ago
  Not so long ago there was a post / comment here that said Ukraine's going through around 10K DJI drones per month
  - rofrol 3y ago
    Link?
- proxysna 3y ago
  They still use mostly DJI drones by burning an older firmware and using an anonymizer to hide takeoff and pilot's position from a potential aeroscope. DJI's are pretty cheap and really good at what they are doing.

snypher 3y ago

>They're beaming back home whatever they want This claim is always thrown out like a life preserver without ever anything to back it up. Do you have anything to support this claim?

foota 3y ago
They're cloud based, aren't they? So regardless of what they're doing with the data, it's true that they're (figuratively) beaming it back, although parent is admittedly implying more. I accept that chinese authorities generally have access to anything they want to in the country, so I would buy that they have access to drone data.
- hackernewds 3y ago
  with how they are executing tick tock and making a mockery out of the USDS system, I would not put this past them at all
- lm28469 3y ago
  > I accept that chinese authorities generally have access to anything they want to in the country So just like the US ?
  - localplume 3y ago
    nope. the US doesn't have the same military-civilian fusion that China has, given the latter is an authoritarian one party state.
- guax 3y ago
  They're not cloud based as far as I would define it. I have one and fly mostly on areas where there is no internet signal. The drone beams back video to your phone and unless you're syncing the cache videos with their cloud nothing its stored other than flight meta data. You can avoid even that by using a totally offline controller/phone.
  - foota 3y ago
    How does the drone communicate with the phone?
    - TheHappyOddish 3y ago
      Via the remote over RF.
kortilla 3y ago
Does the app function without an encrypted connection to DJI controlled servers? If so, then there is nothing else needed. People forget how sketchy closed source software is.
- trailbits 3y ago
  You can turn off all the phone radios or you can block all network traffic and the app still works fine. You only need a connection to get an unlock code in certain airspace.
rmbyrro 3y ago
Given the history of China and its tech companies, the burden of proof shifted to their shoulders. So, I turn to them: is there anything that proves its a surveillance-free device? No, they cannot assure that. Someone may not like it, but China now has a very, very bad reputation among people in the West. Especially after the last pandemic and how they handled it.
- palata 3y ago
  > So, I turn to them: is there anything that proves its a surveillance-free device? No, they cannot assure that. Can Google and Apple prove that their stuff is surveillance-free, though?
  - WitCanStain 3y ago
    No, because it isn't.
  - rmbyrro 3y ago
    No, but US reputation is way better than China's. In the absence of a surveillance-free device, people prefer the one with the better rep.
    - mardifoufs 3y ago
      >us reputation is way better Where? Maybe in the west, certainly not in the rest of the world. China didn't start a war that killed 1million people not even 20 years ago. Westerners don't care about that but that's to be expected.
      - rmbyrro 3y ago
        You are right, Chinese govt didn't kill only 1 million. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine The US military complex is beyond dirty and its grip on govt power makes everyone sick in the West and the East. But reducing the US to that and then doing a comparison with the Chinese government and ideology is unfair, in my opinion.
okdood64 3y ago
While I myself still wouldn't ever use DJI because of this reason, no can ever provide any concrete claim. Quite hilarious.
- corbezzoli 3y ago
  What concrete claim are you looking for? Is it not enough that Huawei was banned by the US? Do you know the reason why it was banned? The same reason could broadly apply to every Chinese company. TikTok is the software counterpart that isn’t allowed on any government phone. DJI does not produce infrastructure pieces so it hasn’t reached the same urgency to the US, so it’s still allowed.
  - hackernewds 3y ago
    at this point then NULL hypothesis should be that China is using consumer grades products to spy on its perceived enemies including the USA.
    - palata 3y ago
      Since Snowden it's pretty clear that the USA is spying on even its citizen. I don't see how it would be surprising that China does something similar.
  - palata 3y ago
    > Do you know the reason why it was banned? For the infrastructure, for legit strategic reasons (without even considering they are abusing it, you generally don't want to rely on foreign infrastructure on your territory). For the smartphones, that's pure commercial war. Huawei was a big competitor.
    - corbezzoli 3y ago
      > For the smartphones, that's pure commercial war. Huawei was a big competitor. Big competitor of what? There’s no popular Android phone OEM in the US. Sounds like you’re making stuff up.

firen777 3y ago

How do Ukrainian operators avoid exposing their own positions? Do they install custom firmware on their drone?

dilyevsky 3y ago
Yes they root the device and set operator coordinates to 0,0 so they are not picked up by aeroscope, etc
- ramraj07 3y ago
  Its not impossible that DJI could have failsafe phone home systems in there that'll still send info back home after rooting. My guess is that the products they produced before the Ukraine war were more naive and now that they've learnt consumer drones will be used in warzones no matter what, I'll bet they have started incorporating such failsafes. Imagine being able to know where every mavic in the frontlines are and selling that info to the Russians.
guax 3y ago
You can operate the drones without a connected device. Operator location is done by locating the radio source. It would be better to have repeaters and cable transmitter to them to avoid direct strike. Tech people are usually paranoid by the most unlikely scenarios. A soldier with an antenna can pinpoint the operator location much easier than trying to get this kind of info from china without leaks.
brindlejim 3y ago
jailbreaks.

WendyTheWillow 3y ago

Good luck using my backyard data to fight in Ukraine…

severus_snape 3y ago

Both fronts use DJI drones[0][1], although DJI suspended its activities in both Russia and Ukraine as of April 26, 2022[2] and contractually forbids[3] any sales by dealers to either country and for combat use. However, other actors are entering the war business, like Parrot[4]. [0]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NtgseODXGSAomx6G5Efwz4XY6AuYF9ZjGSGiCxvNHXE/edit#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NtgseODXGSAomx6G5Efw... [1]: https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/16/ukraine-russia-war-drone-warfare-china/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/02/16/ukraine-russia-war-dron... [2]: https://www.dji.com/uk/newsroom/news/dji-statement-on-sales-compliance-efforts https://www.dji.com/uk/newsroom/news/dji-statement-on-sales-... [3]: https://www.dji.com/newsroom/news/dji-statement-on-dji-relationship-with-aeromotus https://www.dji.com/newsroom/news/dji-statement-on-dji-relat... [4]: https://www.lesechos.fr/weekend/high-tech-auto/henry-seydoux-ecrit-lavenir-des-drones-parrot-dans-le-ciel-ukrainien-1973701 https://www.lesechos.fr/weekend/high-tech-auto/henry-seydoux...

stef25 3y ago
Not so long ago there was a post / comment here that said Ukraine's going through around 10K DJI drones per month
- rofrol 3y ago
  Link?
proxysna 3y ago
They still use mostly DJI drones by burning an older firmware and using an anonymizer to hide takeoff and pilot's position from a potential aeroscope. DJI's are pretty cheap and really good at what they are doing.