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Great advice… Unless you’re a game studio who wants to ship on PlayStation and Switch some day. If you want to build on an engine that lets you target proprieta

Great advice… Unless you’re a game studio who wants to ship on PlayStation and Switch some day. If you want to build on an engine that lets you target proprietary platforms your options are, in practice, limited.

amrocha 3y ago
Are open source tools banned on playstation and switch?
- cableshaft 3y ago
  Not banned, just that every build platform has to be supported and not every open source project prioritizes each platform. Godot, for example, doesn't support console builds, only working with a third party to facilitate porting to those platforms (that may change in the future now that they're getting a lot more support from the community after all this).
  - amrocha 3y ago
    Gotcha, so it's not that open source isn't possible, the industry just needs to invest in community support for an engine
  - follower 3y ago
    > Godot, for example, doesn't support console builds, only working with a third party to facilitate porting to those platforms For the full nuanced details I've listed the relevant links here: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37649430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37649430
    - amrocha 3y ago
      That's a really useful comment, thank you!
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ndiddy 3y ago
  The issue is that console SDKs are under NDA, meaning that open source tools can't target consoles because they would reveal details about the SDK. Some projects have workarounds for this, for example SDL maintains a private Switch port that you can get access to by emailing one of the maintainers with proof you're a Nintendo licensee.
- miohtama 3y ago
  There is no one open source, but various open source licenses. Nintendo Switch and Playstation and titles from Sony and Nintendo incorporate BSD-licensed open source code, so it is obvious that “open source is banned” is not true. It’s only GPL and other viral licenses that lawyers argue is too risky, because it might require disclosing proprietary source when linked. Same goes for Apple App Store as well https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12827624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12827624
  - amrocha 3y ago
    Look at the other comments in this thread, the reason is more complicated than that. Open source tools might be fine but game engines can't be open source if they want to support console builds because that would disclose proprietary information.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > game engines can't be open source if they want to support console builds because that would disclose proprietary information. Technically, they could. It would require someone who hasn't actually licensed the SDK, and so aren't subjected to an NDA, to reverse-engineer things and produce their own implementation under an open source license. Certainly would be an enormous project, but it is well within the realm of the possible. It's been done with complex systems before.
      - amrocha 3y ago
        We're talking about a viable alternative to proprietary game engines. Yes, I know it's possible to reverse engineer the consoles, but that doesn't make it a viable alternative for the games industry.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        > that doesn't make it a viable alternative for the games industry. It makes it legally viable, in that it would allow the production of an SDK that isn't restricted by any NDA, and therefore could be incorporated into opens source projects.
follower 3y ago
That would be an issue with e.g. GPL-licensed game engine but not an Open Source licensed one (e.g. MIT). Obligatory relevant Godot-related links: * https://docs.godotengine.org/en/4.1/tutorials/platform/consoles.html https://docs.godotengine.org/en/4.1/tutorials/platform/conso... * https://godotengine.org/article/godot-consoles-all-you-need-know/ https://godotengine.org/article/godot-consoles-all-you-need-... * https://w4games.com/2023/08/06/w4-games-unveils-w4-consoles-a-practical-console-porting-solution-for-game-developers/ https://w4games.com/2023/08/06/w4-games-unveils-w4-consoles-... Couple of Godot-based games available on console: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassette_Beasts#Development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassette_Beasts#Development / https://godotengine.org/article/godot-showcase-cassette-beasts/#how-was-the-experience-of-porting-cassette-beast-to-consoles https://godotengine.org/article/godot-showcase-cassette-beas... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_Colors#Reception_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_Colors#Reception_2
- jameshart 3y ago
  Providing these links without context, after claiming that MIT licensed engines won’t have any issues, sort of implies that open source engines can be used fine to target consoles. The fact developers have been able to ship Godot games on console doesn’t help much unless those developers are willing to share whatever proprietary engine-to-console-SDK-interface code they wrote. Unity and Unreal, in contrast, will happily license equivalent code to you. I think this section of the second Godot link is worth pulling out and quoting: > … it is impossible for Godot to include first-party console support out of the box. Even if someone would contribute it, we simply could not host this code legally in our Git repository for anyone to use. > Additionally, it would not be possible to distribute this code under the same license that Godot uses (MIT) because this is in direct conflict with the proprietary licenses and non-disclosure terms that console manufacturers require to have access to the knowledge needed to write this code. > To make it simple, it is not possible for Godot to support consoles as an open source project.
  - eropple 3y ago
    The Godot core developers have a company you can partner with for a Godot build for those platforms. It's not really a big deal if you're making the kind of money to make that port worth it.

amrocha 3y ago

Are open source tools banned on playstation and switch?

cableshaft 3y ago
Not banned, just that every build platform has to be supported and not every open source project prioritizes each platform. Godot, for example, doesn't support console builds, only working with a third party to facilitate porting to those platforms (that may change in the future now that they're getting a lot more support from the community after all this).
- amrocha 3y ago
  Gotcha, so it's not that open source isn't possible, the industry just needs to invest in community support for an engine
- follower 3y ago
  > Godot, for example, doesn't support console builds, only working with a third party to facilitate porting to those platforms For the full nuanced details I've listed the relevant links here: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37649430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37649430
  - amrocha 3y ago
    That's a really useful comment, thank you!
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ndiddy 3y ago
The issue is that console SDKs are under NDA, meaning that open source tools can't target consoles because they would reveal details about the SDK. Some projects have workarounds for this, for example SDL maintains a private Switch port that you can get access to by emailing one of the maintainers with proof you're a Nintendo licensee.
miohtama 3y ago
There is no one open source, but various open source licenses. Nintendo Switch and Playstation and titles from Sony and Nintendo incorporate BSD-licensed open source code, so it is obvious that “open source is banned” is not true. It’s only GPL and other viral licenses that lawyers argue is too risky, because it might require disclosing proprietary source when linked. Same goes for Apple App Store as well https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12827624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12827624
- amrocha 3y ago
  Look at the other comments in this thread, the reason is more complicated than that. Open source tools might be fine but game engines can't be open source if they want to support console builds because that would disclose proprietary information.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > game engines can't be open source if they want to support console builds because that would disclose proprietary information. Technically, they could. It would require someone who hasn't actually licensed the SDK, and so aren't subjected to an NDA, to reverse-engineer things and produce their own implementation under an open source license. Certainly would be an enormous project, but it is well within the realm of the possible. It's been done with complex systems before.
    - amrocha 3y ago
      We're talking about a viable alternative to proprietary game engines. Yes, I know it's possible to reverse engineer the consoles, but that doesn't make it a viable alternative for the games industry.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        > that doesn't make it a viable alternative for the games industry. It makes it legally viable, in that it would allow the production of an SDK that isn't restricted by any NDA, and therefore could be incorporated into opens source projects.

follower 3y ago

That would be an issue with e.g. GPL-licensed game engine but not an Open Source licensed one (e.g. MIT). Obligatory relevant Godot-related links: * https://docs.godotengine.org/en/4.1/tutorials/platform/consoles.html https://docs.godotengine.org/en/4.1/tutorials/platform/conso... * https://godotengine.org/article/godot-consoles-all-you-need-know/ https://godotengine.org/article/godot-consoles-all-you-need-... * https://w4games.com/2023/08/06/w4-games-unveils-w4-consoles-a-practical-console-porting-solution-for-game-developers/ https://w4games.com/2023/08/06/w4-games-unveils-w4-consoles-... Couple of Godot-based games available on console: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassette_Beasts#Development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassette_Beasts#Development / https://godotengine.org/article/godot-showcase-cassette-beasts/#how-was-the-experience-of-porting-cassette-beast-to-consoles https://godotengine.org/article/godot-showcase-cassette-beas... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_Colors#Reception_2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_Colors#Reception_2

jameshart 3y ago
Providing these links without context, after claiming that MIT licensed engines won’t have any issues, sort of implies that open source engines can be used fine to target consoles. The fact developers have been able to ship Godot games on console doesn’t help much unless those developers are willing to share whatever proprietary engine-to-console-SDK-interface code they wrote. Unity and Unreal, in contrast, will happily license equivalent code to you. I think this section of the second Godot link is worth pulling out and quoting: > … it is impossible for Godot to include first-party console support out of the box. Even if someone would contribute it, we simply could not host this code legally in our Git repository for anyone to use. > Additionally, it would not be possible to distribute this code under the same license that Godot uses (MIT) because this is in direct conflict with the proprietary licenses and non-disclosure terms that console manufacturers require to have access to the knowledge needed to write this code. > To make it simple, it is not possible for Godot to support consoles as an open source project.
- eropple 3y ago
  The Godot core developers have a company you can partner with for a Godot build for those platforms. It's not really a big deal if you're making the kind of money to make that port worth it.